MI:Grand Rapids Open Carry Lawsuit Unedited Video: No evidence of "Talking to Nobody"

Gun Watch ^ | 12 January, 2013 | Dean Weingarten

[marktwain]

Yesterday I posted the story where mlive.com had obtained the dashcam video of the incident where Grand Rapids police Officer Moe drew his firearm and aimed it at Johann Deffert, who was walking on a sidewalk from a local restaurant to his home about noon of March 3rd, 2013.   Mr. Deffert and his attorney have filed a lawsuit against Grand Rapids for violation of his rights.

In the video that was edited by mlive.com, it seemed that Mr. Deffert was confirming that he had been talking to himself as he walked down the sidewalk.  Mlive.com reporter John Agar reported that Officer Moe said that Mr. Deffert was talking to himself.

The man was also "talking to nobody.”

Nowhere in the unedited video does it show that Mr. Deffert is talking to himself.  In the unedited video, where I found the audio much easier to understand, it is clear that it is not Mr. Deffert who is confirming that he was talking to himself, as I mistakenly reported yesterday.  It is one of the officers that is now on the scene, repeating the allegation that Mr. Deffert was talking to himself, saying: Yeah, you were walking down the road, talking to yourself.   It may be Officer Moe repeating his allegation.   Mr. Deffert just says a noncommittal "OK" after that assertion.

The only indication that Mr. Deffert was ever talking to himself is the statement by Officer Moe, well before he ever makes contact with Mr. Deffert.  When officer Moe first says it, he is too far from Mr. Deffert to know.  He is in the patrol car.  The mike in the patrol car which clearly picks up Officer Moe's words and traffic noise, does not give any indication that Mr. Deffert is talking to himself.   Mr. Deffert's back is to Officer Moe, and he is a significant distance away, walking away.  He is not wildly gesturing or doing anything out of the ordinary.  He is just walking.

After the lawsuit was filed, the city put forward the following defense:

City Attorney Catherine Mish says the police response was “very reasonable” with Deffert, alone, talking loudly outside of a church service.

This is not unreasonable, given the report filed by Officer Moe:

“Deffert was alone, and was loudly talking to himself,” Moe wrote. “Based on the area, and Deffert’s unusual behavior, R/O (responding officer) was concerned Deffert may have mental issues and was about to commit a violent crime."

The problem is that the unedited dashcam video only coincides with what Officer Moe says on one point: Mr. Deffert was alone.   There is no collaboration that Deffert was talking to himself, loudly or not.   It does not support the statement of City Attorney Catherine Mish that Mr. Deffert was "outside of a church service."  Mr. Deffert was well past the church in question when Officer Moe sees him.   He is simply walking down the sidewalk.  Nothing in the 911 call or radio traffic that I have heard says anything about Mr. Deffert talking to himself or doing anything illegal or unusual, except that Mr. Deffert is exercising his right to bear arms.   In fact, the 911 caller is uncertain if open carry is legal or not, and affirms that Mr. Deffert is carrying the pistol in a holster.  The Dispatcher tells the caller that open carry is legal.  This is very similar to the Madison, Wisconsin case that ended up being settled out of court for $10,000.

The question is, where does Officer Moe come up with the assertion that Mr. Deffert is talking to himself?   There does not seem to be any evidence for this assertion, which is stated well before Officer Moe is any position to be able to determine it.   The assertion that Mr. Deffert is doing this in front of a Church is obviously something that Officer Moe could not know, because he has no contact with Mr. Deffert until Mr. Deffert is well past the Church, which is on the other side of the street and set well back from the side walk.

On review of the unedited video, the case looks much stronger for Mr. Deffert and his attorney.

Unedited video, in three segments, here.

[marktwain]

The "talking to nobody" allegation is in segment one. The repeated allegation is in segment two.

In segment one, you can see the church in question on the right hand side. Mr. Deffert is across the street and well away from the church.

[TennesseeProfessor]

So hold on, I can not simultaneously exercise my right to free speech by talking to myself and my right to bear arms? Does the question of whether a policeman is justified in shooting a non-violent but armed citizen really hinge on whether or not the citizen was talking?

[cripplecreek]

Cop with an attitude seems to be a far greater danger.

[marktwain]

If a person was loudly talking to themselves in a manner that appears irrational, it could be part of a reasonable suspicion that the person could be about to do something illegal.

The problem in this case, is there is no evidence that shows that Mr. Deffert was ever talking to himself, loudly, under his breath, or at all.

Officer Moe just makes the assertion, which appears out of nowhere. It may be that Officer Moe is just creating a pretext to stop Mr. Deffert. I do not see any evidence that coincides with the “talking loudly to himself” in the police report.

[Bryanw92]

>>The question is, where does Officer Moe come up with the assertion that Mr. Deffert is talking to himself?

The same place that most “probable cause” comes from. They pull it out of their....imagination.

“I smelled marijuana smoke.”
“I thought I heard screams”
“He was crossing the white line.”
“The dog was threatening me.”
and now
“He was talking to himself.”

[fella]

Thought the headline started with M1 Garand . . . .

[realcleanguy]

We should do the same to the police for “open carry”. I mean, come on. I don’t even own a handgun, but for pity sakes. Tough guy with a small penis attitude wants to arrest him

[Red_Devil 232]

Well just Krap! I got to go blockade the door! I talk to myself all the time, sometimes it is to my dogs. It is just thinking out loud. The dogs do on occasion look at me funny though. They cock their heads like whatcha mean Daddy?

[rockrr]

Sorry, only exercise of one right at a time and only upon approval of prior written application.

/s

[SECURE AMERICA]

Deffert was alone, and was loudly talking to himself,” Moe wrote. “Based on the area, and Deffert’s unusual behavior, R/O (responding officer) was concerned Deffert may have mental issues and was about to commit a violent crime.”

Which of these things have you never done?
Walked somewhere alone
Talked to yourself
Being in an area (no I have zero idea what that is either)

According to this Police Officer and his superiors you may have been about to commit a crime.. You certainly were/are mental....

[Sasparilla]

In Arizona, hardly anyone gives a second thought to open carry. In Michigan, its highly unusual. But, it appears that the cop is greatly embellishing facts with his own creative ones.

[House Atreides]

The “talking to nobody” allegation is in segment one. The repeated allegation is in segment two.

In segment one, you can see the church in question on the right hand side. Mr. Deffert is across the street and well away from the church.
******************************************************************
The segment one video makes it VERY clear that the “talking to no one” allegation is simply being MADE UP by the stupid first officer. The officer is in his patrol car between 1/2 block to one block behind the citizen who is open carrying. The citizen is walking away from where the patrol officer is when the cop said the citizen was “talking to no one” statement. The cop is inside his patrol car with the windows up so there is no way he could have heard any such “self talking” even if it were actually occurring.

Thank goodness for these complete squad car videos with excellent sound recordings. I’m sure the citizen’s attorneys will be making good use of them—particularly in conjunction with the related 911 call recording and the 911 operator’s recorded radio traffic with the patrol cars.

The city is going to lose this civil lawsuit BIG TIME if it ever goes to trial. And the damages awarded will NOT be small potatoes. I’d be very surprised if the city didn’t first reach a settlement with the abused citizen. Unless of course the city government is as stupid as the first cop.

It’s amateur hour in much of Law Enforcement nowadays.

[beandog]

I talk to myself all the time. When my son gives me a hard time, I just tell him I’m the smartest person I know so why wouldn’t I talk to myself.

[Shimmer1]

I sing to myself all the time, heck, i practice belly dancing moves in my car while driving! Will I lose my right to bear arms because of this?!! NO! I must not lose my right.

[Little Bill]

Even in the semiFRee State of NH no one cares if you open carry, except demorats, and that includes pistols. We are free to own and openly carry those things that Massholes and other foreigner's quake in their boots about.

[bunkerhill7]

25,000 shots fired simultaneously today in New York State by Patriots to protest the SAFE ACT.

[SERE_DOC]

Which is the exact reason while I open carry or concealed, I never go out of the house, while listening to my Rice Krispies, because holding a conversation with a cop bent on being difficult, and taking counsel from my cereal could be detrimental.

Just sayin

[trebb]

I talk to myself a lot. I only think that the wife is actually listening - I guess you can add “delusional” to my failings....