Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Greenfield: Who Needs a Democratic Egypt?
Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog ^ | Wednesday, August 21, 2013 | Daniel Greenfield

Posted on 08/22/2013 4:50:02 AM PDT by Louis Foxwell

Wednesday, August 21, 2013

Who Needs a Democratic Egypt?

Posted by Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog

In the big marble halls of Washington, in the slow ambling pace of summer cocktail parties where veterans of the political establishment still shake their heads at the fall of the Graham dynasty and the sale of the Post to a parvenu dot comer, the second favorite topic of conversation is how to make Egypt fall into line.

All the cocktail party guests, the senators, their aides, the editors and editorial writers, the heads of foreign affairs think-tanks and generals angling for a lobbying gig with a firm that just might want to move some big ugly steel down Egypt way once all the shouting dies down, haven’t had much luck.

Or as the New York Times, the paper that has displaced the Washington Post as the foreign affairs leak hole of the administration, put it, “all of the efforts of the United States government, all the cajoling, the veiled threats, the high-level envoys from Washington and the 17 personal phone calls by Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, failed.”

And all the community organizer’s horses and his men couldn’t put the Muslim Brotherhood back together again.

Not even 17 personal phone calls from a man who couldn’t get through his confirmation sessions without becoming a national laughingstock accomplished anything.

Washington isn’t giving up, but its foreign aid card has just been neutralized by the Saudis who have offered to make up any aid that it cuts. And unlike Israel, Egypt isn’t vulnerable to threat of being isolated. Not with a sizable number of the Gulf oil countries at its back and the Russians and Chinese eager to jump in with defense contracts.

Instead of asking how to make the Egyptians do what Washington wants, it might be time for the cocktail party goers to ask what they really want from Egypt and what they really need from Egypt.

The two aren’t actually the same.

We may want Egypt to be democratic, because it fits our notions of how countries should work, but that isn’t something that we actually need.

The editorial writers and foreign policy experts who never got beyond the expat bars of Cairo will try to blame Egypt’s lack of democracy for our terrorism problem, and Obama and McCain may even echo their idiocy, but just like the attempts to blame Israel for Islamic terrorism, it’s not a policy, it’s a hollow apologetic for terrorism.

If anything, Egypt’s original unwillingness to bow to the Brotherhood nearly redirected Al Qaeda away from its war against America as the Egyptian faction sought to fight an internal war of the kind that Al Qaeda in Iraq and Syria are now fighting.

Bin Laden chose to go to war against America, but Al Qaeda very nearly missed being something more like an international version of The Islamic Group focused on bombing Egyptian targets; in which case September 11 would have never happened. It may still become that, if its current focus on civil wars is any indication.

The overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood will no doubt inspire some future Rage Boys to join the ranks of some terrorist group somewhere. But so would just about anything. Terrorists will seize on anything for propaganda and when they don’t have actual events to work with, they make them up. And then they blame America for them.

The Islamist consensus is that America overthrew Morsi even though Washington’s worst and dumbest are tearing out their toupees trying to figure out how to get the Muslim Brotherhood back into power. That consensus isn’t there because of anything that Obama, Kerry, Clinton or Hagel did with his 17 personal phone calls. It’s there because Islamists need us to be the enemy. The endless conspiracies that they claim we carry out against them give their pathetic existence and murderous campaigns meaning.

Given a choice between a militaristic Egypt that helps us fight terrorism and a democratic Egypt that is run by Islamists who collaborate with terrorists, putting our political capital into the Islamists in the hopes that they’ll convince the terrorists that the ballot box is mightier than the truck bomb is suicidal insanity.

We need a democratic Egypt about as much as we need sensitivity training from Mayor Filner. A democratic Egypt is unstable, vulnerable and unfriendly. And those are just its good sides.

Our first hint that democracy wouldn’t turn Egyptians into Americans should have been the polls showing that the majority of Egyptians favored the death penalty for adultery and blasphemy. There was no way that such an electorate was going to produce some Egyptian counterpart of America. At least not until we invite in a few hundred million Somalis, Pakistanis and Egyptians to enrich our diversity.

Of the four major players in Egypt, three are fundamentally undemocratic, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Egyptian military and the Egyptian elites of officialdom, often mischaracterized as Mubarak loyalists though they have as much loyalty to him as Obama does, and one lightly sprinkled with democracy, the liberals and the left. And that sprinkling is very light indeed.

With an electorate whose idea of democracy is indistinguishable from Islamic law and a political elite that is undemocratic even when it participates in democratic elections, what reason was there for believing that overlaying democracy on them would lead to democratic values, rather than just democratic functions?

Now two undemocratic players and one lightly democratic player ganged up on a ruling undemocratic player. We can call the whole thing a coup or a candy store; it doesn’t matter much.

The process that removed Morsi was similar to the one that removed Mubarak. The same senators abandoning their cocktail parties to demand an end to foreign aid for Egypt because of the C word, were celebrating the same C word that took down Mubarak.

The difference, they will argue, is that Morsi was democratically elected. But so was Mubarak in 2005. But, they will say, Mubarak’s election was not truly democratic, it was marred by all sorts of electoral irregularities and other shady beasts of the ballot box. And they will say that Mubarak acted like a tyrant. But the same was true of Morsi’s election. And Morsi did act like a tyrant.

The coup position is reduced to arguing that the overthrow of one elected leader by popular protests and the military was a very good thing while the overthrow of another by the same means was a bad thing because one election was somewhat cleaner than the other on a scale from Chicago to Detroit.

Never mind that the first leader was an ally of the United States and that the other was its enemy.

Is the gram’s worth of difference in democracy that we’re fighting for really worth undermining our national security?

I’ve met lawyers who have told me that they would have defended Hitler pro bono because of the principle of the thing. I’ve never entirely understood why the principle of this thing trumps genocide. The application of the pro bono Hitler lawyer clause to the Muslim Brotherhood’s democracy seems even more dubious. And I have a healthy suspicion of people who too eagerly volunteer to be Hitler's lawyer or the Muslim Brotherhood's press agent for the principle of the thing.

Are we really obligated to vigorously defend the Muslim Brotherhood’s right to take over a country because the election that allowed it to come to power and begin attempting to seize absolute power wasn’t as dirty as the last election? Does the principle that democracy should be implemented here, there and everywhere, even if it leads to a terrorist group taking over the most powerful country in the region, really trump our national security?

And if so, why? Why have we volunteered to be the Muslim Brotherhood’s pro bono democracy lawyer?

The Arab Spring has thoroughly discredited the idea that spreading democracy enhances regional stability and protects our national security. We would have more luck promoting vital national interests by spreading viral goat yelling video memes than by bludgeoning other countries into having elections.

We don’t need a democratic Egypt. Even Egypt doesn’t need a democratic Egypt. What we need is an Egypt that is stable and not too excessively sympathetic to our enemies. And the best way to get that is to leave it alone.

Egypt isn’t a problem. It doesn’t need the cocktail crowd of Washington to fix it. It has plenty of problems, but the same crowd that is incapable of fixing its own economy or a broken toilet, is not in any shape to deal with those problems either.

The United States needs allies. It doesn’t need to treat other countries like children who have to be taught the right way. That same arrogant attitude has destroyed the cultures of our own cities. Treating other countries the way we treat our own people will only do for them what it did for Detroit.

Our ideal allies are countries that manage their own affairs, agree with us on some issues that matter to our economic interests and national security and aren’t actively trying to kill us.

That’s a high bar to set in the Middle East and it got a lot higher after the Arab Spring trashed the few countries that qualified. Egypt may now be tipping back into the camp of the countries that don’t want to kill us, assuming they get over wanting to kill us for trying to get the Muslim Brotherhood back into power by hook or by crook.

We’ll never be very good friends. A deep and meaningful friendship with a population that believes in chopping the hands off thieves and stoning everyone else was never in the cards. But most alliances aren’t built on enduring love or even mutual affection.

They’re built on something better. Cynical pragmatism.

We had a wonderfully pragmatic and lovingly cynical relationship with Egypt. If Chuck Hagel stops making 17 personal phone calls every hour telling the Egyptian government how not to shoot Muslim Brotherhood terrorists, maybe one day we’ll have a cynically pragmatic relationship with Egypt again.



TOPICS: Government; History; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: greenfield; sultanknish
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-27 next last

1 posted on 08/22/2013 4:50:03 AM PDT by Louis Foxwell
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: arasina; daisy mae for the usa; AdvisorB; wizardoz; free-in-nyc; Vendome; Georgia Girl 2; ...

Greenfields undisguised contempt for the DC set is full blown here. We are going to get what is best for us from the Egyptians whether we like it or not.

(Need help with the new masthead in the text box. S’il vous plait.)


2 posted on 08/22/2013 4:55:34 AM PDT by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

The kenyan cares about a democratic Egypt insofar as it leads to and promotes a totalitarian Shariah State. That is what any good moslem would desire.


3 posted on 08/22/2013 4:59:22 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

Democracy is way over rated. And it is incompatible with islam. Democracy is three rapists and two women voting on how to spend the afternoon. Or three muslims and two non muslims voting on whether to adopt Shariah law (which is why we got the coup in Egypt).


4 posted on 08/22/2013 5:02:13 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

Greenfield and Steyn are two very different sorts of writers and theyare the best men writing.


5 posted on 08/22/2013 5:07:30 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cuban leaf

The only form of government that works in the Arab world is secular authoritarianism. Bottom line.


6 posted on 08/22/2013 5:13:56 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

When Egypt had their Obama blessed ‘revolution’ and ‘democracy’ what did they do?
Elected the MB and Morsi to power. But they are a nation divided just like we are.


7 posted on 08/22/2013 5:25:32 AM PDT by tflabo (Truth or Tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

When Egypt had their Obama blessed ‘revolution’ and ‘democracy’ what did they do?
Elected the MB and Morsi to power. But they are a nation divided just like we are.


8 posted on 08/22/2013 5:25:34 AM PDT by tflabo (Truth or Tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: elcid1970

The only form of government that works in the Arab world is secular authoritarianism. Bottom line.


This^.


9 posted on 08/22/2013 5:26:01 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

fl


10 posted on 08/22/2013 5:36:36 AM PDT by maine-iac7 (Christian is as Christian does - by their fruits)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell; Liz; thouworm; Grampa Dave; ken5050; GOPJ; stephenjohnbanker; ...
RE :Our first hint that democracy wouldn’t turn Egyptians into Americans should have been the polls showing that the majority of Egyptians favored the death penalty for adultery and blasphemy. There was no way that such an electorate was going to produce some Egyptian counterpart of America. At least not until we invite in a few hundred million Somalis, Pakistanis and Egyptians to enrich our diversity.
Of the four major players in Egypt, three are fundamentally undemocratic, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Egyptian military and the Egyptian elites of officialdom, often mischaracterized as Mubarak loyalists though they have as much loyalty to him as Obama does, and one lightly sprinkled with democracy, the liberals and the left. And that sprinkling is very light indeed.
With an electorate whose idea of democracy is indistinguishable from Islamic law and a political elite that is undemocratic even when it participates in democratic elections, what reason was there for believing that overlaying democracy on them would lead to democratic values, rather than just democratic functions?

What? Voting doesnt fix everything? How about the Bush democracy in Iraq?


11 posted on 08/22/2013 5:50:54 AM PDT by sickoflibs (To GOP : Any path to US Citizenship IS putting them ahead in line. Stop lying about your position.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell; mickie; flaglady47; pax_et_bonum; seekthetruth; Maine Mariner; seenenuf; ...
Greenfield is a brilliant writer.

For the first time I grasp the total Egyptian situation from the above easy-to-understand overview.

One article by this journalist is worth more than 10 nights of blatherings by TV pundits who are so busy overtalking each other that basic reportage and analysis of world events always gets lost in the shuffle.

BTW, last night's Hannity hour with substitute host Monica Crowley featured the worst example of eye-glazing, disgusting overtalking I've EVER heard....causing me to turn the TV off....and spend some enjoyable time freeping on my computer.

Back to Greenfield....everyone should be on the ping list for this supurb writer/analyst.

Leni

12 posted on 08/22/2013 5:56:03 AM PDT by MinuteGal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

Send Egyptians the Declaration of Independence and The Charter of Negative Liberties. Perhaps they can do something with it.

FUBO
FUCONgress
FUUSSC


13 posted on 08/22/2013 5:58:26 AM PDT by PGalt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell

The base requirement for democracy is an average IQ above an egg plant and the Middle East fails that simple test.

You cannot attempt to have highly clannish people, who also are so stupid as to believe in Islam, attempt to rule themselves. Come on, it would be 1000 times easier to herd cats.

These sand monkeys even have to be told by their comic book for retards, koran, which hand to wipe themselves.

If you are too ignorant to wipe, you are way to ignorant to rule.

The world would be a much better and safer place were the UN to actually do something useful and issue a world wide ban on the hate cult of Islam.


14 posted on 08/22/2013 6:48:46 AM PDT by Wurlitzer (Nothing says "ignorance" like Islam! 969)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs; Wurlitzer; PGalt
A STROLL DOWN MEMORY LANE In 2009, Obama made a self-serving, suck-up speech in Cairo----apologizing for America's historical role in the Middle East. Obama calculatedly set the stage for the Egyptian president's overthrow by the mob.

When the worst-case scenario happened, when Obama's personal choice---Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, Mohamed Morsi, was elected president----Obama sap-happily sent his secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, to Cairo to personally kiss-up to Morsi---(perhaps at that time hatching their plans to destroy Westen civiliation in compliance w/ Muslim Brotherhood dictates?).

Obama added a treacherous ill-advised component to US foreign policy----sucking up to the very people who want to kill Americans and destroy American churches.

Obama was prostrate in obeisance before Muslim leaders---portraying teeming Muslim majorities there as "victims of Western colonialism and Cold War policies," stupidly promoting democracy among warring cultures w/ thousands of years of religious and territorial factionalism.

"The relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of coexistence and cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars," Obama said in the June 2009 speech in Cairo. "More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies, without regard to their own aspirations."

Fast froward to 2013: in the past 4-5 days, the savage Muslim Brotherhood torched some 57 Egyptian churches and Christian businesses, homes and holy places. Obama ignored the bloodbath and spent the crisis dining out, golfing, power-partying, and vacationing in exclusive Martha’s Vineyard on the taxpayers' dime.

15 posted on 08/22/2013 7:47:08 AM PDT by Liz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Wurlitzer
The base requirement for democracy is an average IQ above an egg plant and the Middle East fails that simple test.

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt; but they have an actual physical deficiency. Even dog breeders know better than to let close relatives mate; but they insist upon it.

16 posted on 08/22/2013 8:09:36 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Remember... the first revolutionary was Satan."--Russian Orthodox Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell
Egypt’s Coptic Christians face unprecedented reprisals from the Muslim Brotherhood
Egypt : Islamists Step Up Attacks on Christians for Supporting Morsi's Ouster
Egypt: Coptic church cancels Sunday mass for 1st time in 1,600 years
REPORTED LIST OF CHURCHES AND CHRISTIAN INST ATTACKED IN EGYPT WILL ASTONISH YOU
Dark Day for Egypt’s Christians ((photos of the carnage)
17 posted on 08/22/2013 8:19:43 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Remember... the first revolutionary was Satan."--Russian Orthodox Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs; stephenjohnbanker; Impy; Gilbo_3

Normally, I have a hard time caring about Egypt, Syria, et al.

If they want to kill each other off in industrial quantities, we should stay out of it and let them.

If/when they become a threat to us, then we should do the same to them.

But this thing with Egypt’s military cleaning house on the MB... I gotta hand it to them. They’re remembering the “domestic” part of whatever their oath is...


18 posted on 08/22/2013 9:01:41 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell
Our first hint that democracy wouldn’t turn Egyptians into Americans should have been the polls showing that the majority of Egyptians favored the death penalty for adultery and blasphemy. There was no way that such an electorate was going to produce some Egyptian counterpart of America. At least not until we invite in a few hundred million Somalis, Pakistanis and Egyptians to enrich our diversity.

Voting for one blowhard over another in ANY country that lacks the equivalent of our Bill of Rights and Constitutional protections is NOT going to work. If the Jim Jones cult could vote in a President - that man would be a monster.

19 posted on 08/22/2013 9:57:01 AM PDT by GOPJ (- - NSA - The only part of government that actually listens...Joe Kovacs)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MinuteGal; gonzo
Well framed piece.

Now, here's something that has not been said: No government in the history of the world - including Papa Joe Stalin's - could endure 33 million protestors!!!

Egyptians had never faced a free choice election and thought that an Islamist regime would be good; they realized their mistake and protested for a re-do. The military tried to head off a civil war; but the Bro-hood is not an inclusive group... it is their way or the H¬llway. They will either regain their supremacy or be exiled from the country.

Condoleeza Rice and GW Bush pushed for elections in Gaza - and look at the result... and many Republicans think Rice would be a great President... Count me out!

What America encouraged in Egypt is exactly what we did in Iran with the Shah... abandon an ally [of whatever caliber] and surrender to extreme Islamists. Almost all of our problems in the Middle East stem from that fiasco all those many years ago.

It is now easy to understand why Mubarak aggressively suppressed the Brotherhood [after they killed Anwar Sadat.] This same extremist cancer has infiltrated all aspects of our government - and to some extent our society. We stand at a precipice -- and prayer may be the only deliverance.

20 posted on 08/22/2013 10:31:57 AM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-27 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson