Posted on 01/19/2013 6:13:45 AM PST by AnonymousConservative
If I am correct in what I have observed, it is not only about feeling good about themselves, but it is also about winning the argument, not by logic, but by socially out-grouping you as mean.
In the link on dopamine, they looked at people’s brains as they completed tasks. High dopamine function was task oriented, as in using logic to search for truth. Low dopamine function was active in much different areas, areas associated with perceiving self, and maneuvering socially.
The Liberal portrays you as mean, to make others ally with them, against you. If you actively seek to ally others with you, against them, and they detect this, they back down, rather than get out-grouped.
I agree! The first thing I do when speaking with a lib whether one-on-one or in front of other people is to restate their argument in a simple, obviously silly way, that subtly requires an embarrasing response. Such as, “I absolutely agree. Have you posted your ‘gun free zone’ poster on your house yet?” Or, “You couldn’t be more correct! The government should provide a minimum annual salary, pay for all your medical care, provide free day care, and put cash barrels on every street corner. I forgot, what was your college major?”
Ridicule of liberal ideas should be unrelenting, incessant. Never let them go without embarrassment or the fear of being embarrassed for lack of common sense. Remember, the fear of embarrassment is a fear that one is not intelligent. That fear is very powerful. Always think of ways to make libs fear the feeling of being unintelligent. That fear can quickly make them change their opinions.
The book is solely about how the ideologies evolved, and is rock solid scientifically. The arguing stuff is somewhat speculative (even though what little evidence there is supports it), hence it being firewalled form the book.
Click the r/K link in the header of my site, or go here for the simple version. Or check this graphic.
Yep. Dead on.
That would explain why they loved to “gang up” on me at work. It would also explain why they tended to back down if even one person was on my side or even if they merely acknowledged that I had a valid point.
I am reading your r/K link.
This is all very interesting. Conservatives should learn to use this information effectively. Instead, our elected “conservatives” suck up to the perceived in-group and vote with them in order to be seen as “nice.”
Maybe we need to (among other things) hammer on the idea that liberals are being “mean” and “judgmental” when they try to attach those labels to us!
Honestly, I’m not entirely sure myself. Evidence shows individuals go Conservative on questionaires, when shown images of threat. I suspect they are adapting their thought process to be more Conservative reflexively, since Conservatism is more adaptive under such conditions. But I can’t rule out they are just taking cover, and hoping not to get hurt in the coming melee. Maybe some are one and some are the other. My feeling is, either way, it means less Liberalism, so why look too closely?
“And what exactly *shames* a liberal???”
Anything which poses a threat ot their social standing in the group. In the video with Mike Wallace linked at the page which is linked in the piece above, Wallace goes on and on about the Liberal’s right to help enemy troops ambush US troops, so as to be able to report on how the enemy operates. Logic won’t persuade him for fifteen minutes.
Then a Marine castigates him as a helpless traitor, ignoring all the moral bull, and Wallace is suddenly a crushed man, and cedes that the Marine has a perfectly valid point. The argument was over. You have to see the video, to see his change in mood, and mental state. I mean, he was done.
When you ignore logic, and outcomes, and focus your argument just on how the Liberal is contemptible by standards of human decency, the Liberal experiences a panic response called an amygdala hijack, and withdraws from the debate.
I have seen it done, and done it myself.
I totally agree.
Thank you. I have been working on all of this for a long time, it is nice to see some people enjoy it.
Regarding r/K. It is interesting that typical liberal behavior is to reproduce like rabbits, favoring promiscuity and single parenting and the “rights” of welfare recipients to have as many children as possible, yet they are the ones preaching doom and gloom about the carrying capacity of the earth. On the other hand, liberal “elites” often have few children and behave much more like K-types. And the stereotypical “bitter clinger” has a large family.
I think you can look at “reproduction” in another way, too, not just as physically reproducing. Think about reproduction as “converting” someone to your view, i.e., changing a liberal into a conservative or vice versa. Do we use the careful high investment nurturing method while they are using the scattershot promiscuous method? I think so. They get to use the schools and the media while we carefully raise our children and logically debate points with those we think have a hope of seeing the truth.
... still reading ...
My opinion only.
In a conversation with one of my brothers just yesterday we touched on this very topic. In the course of the discussion I used the old saw that begins, “You can lead a horse...” as a prelude to a long held belief - that post-modern leftists don’t (can’t?) argue using reason - they rely on emotion.
When you couple that with another phenomena peculiar to the left - the complete and utter lack of shame - you have people that you can neither reason with nor appeal to their sense of honor.
That leaves me with but one alternative - fear of consequence. “Get away from me or I’ll kill you” Perhaps an oversimplification but the principles at play are accurate.
The direct answer to you question is “merely shut them up”. They are welcome to think (feeeeeeeeel) any cockeyed notion they want - as long as they keep it to themselves. Make them contemplative of the fact that if they choose to act out there will be painful consequences for them.
IMHO
You are dead on. Although I will add one thing. Ideology seems to be associated with a brain structure called the amygdala, which develops in response to threat. Basically, as you experience danger, and learn how to cope with it, your amygdala develops, and if the MRI studies are any measure, you become more Conservative.
In some ways, Liberals may deny reality as a way of shielding the amygdala, by avoiding risk. Threat stimuli, like the article describes, may say risk can no longer be ignored, and thus one has no choice but to prepare oneself to deal with it, mentally. Once neurologically prepared to confront risk, Conservatism may be more acceptable to you.
I know what you are saying.
Exactly. I think if we can learn to argue emotionally, and out-group the Liberal in debate, they will back down. As it stands now, we argue facts, and I think the Liberal marvels at our stupidity, as they then argue to amass support behind them. In their opinion, what use is our being right, if they have the support to make the decision?
We need to argue for that popular support, and go shot for shot with the Lib.
“yet they are the ones preaching doom and gloom about the carrying capacity of the earth.”
If you look at r/K, the Malthusian scenario, where resources run out, and people fight for what is left, is K-selection, and it would quickly result in a lot of dead Liberals. I think they see that instinctively, and that is why we have to all consume less, and make sure there is enough for everyone. The second there is not enough grass for all the bunny rabbits, Liberals will become much less common, and the very thought of having to fight for resources terrifies them.
“On the other hand, liberal “elites” often have few children and behave much more like K-types.”
If you combine a conscientious r-selected’s low desire to rear, with birth control and abortion (Both about as low-investment a rearing strategy as you get) you get a single mom with no kids, or the modern Liberal female today.
“And the stereotypical “bitter clinger” has a large family.”
Large by what standards? If there were no birth control, as in the primitive scenario where this evolved, and everyone had promiscuous sex all the time, women could have twenty or thirty kids, or more. Six or eight is small, by those standards.
A lot of this has to be looked at in the primitive environment where it came from, as opposed to today. Some of the urges, though perfect for the natural environment, are highly maladaptive when combined with modern technology. Give us a few thousand years, and we will adapt, but for now, birth control is a new selective pressure actively culling intelligent Liberals, and leaving behind large swaths of indigent idiots who turn out kids as fast as they can.
Eventually, we will adapt, but until then, this all has to be seen in the context of the more primitive environment it came from.
“Think about reproduction as “converting” someone to your view, i.e., changing a liberal into a conservative or vice versa.”
Interesting. I have never thought about that. Maybe flooding the cities with welfare floods the poor with dopamine, which foments Liberalism and entitlement.
I like to think of that as the ultimate application of evolutionary psychology! Just Kidding, Mods.
Mark my words, if ever we came to the brink of Revolutioanry War II, it would not take much real fighting, before most Liberals fell into Stockholm Syndrome, and abandoned the fight. I would not be surprised to see them become ardent Conservatives overnight.
TC, brother.
In argumentation nothing beats common sense and white-hot Truth.
This behaviorist claptrap is a thinly veiled call to mafia type extortion and bullying. We have civilization in the first place in order to lessen chronic high threat scenarios. This may be hard to take for a lot of right wing adrenaline junkies, but the human mind actually functions more inventively in a low threat, high freedom environment. Compare the standard of living in the Soviet Union vs. the West. Thanks, but I think I’ll pass on the goose stepping goonery of K threat as a rhetorical device. Pavlovian stimulus-response training may be good for circus animal acts, but it’s utter hell on one’s self-image as a free, sentient, sovereign individual. You want survival advantage, make yourself smarter, make your kids smarter, make your government representatives smarter.
This behaviorist claptrap is a thinly veiled call to mafia type extortion and bullying. We have civilization in the first place in order to lessen chronic high threat scenarios. This may be hard to take for a lot of right wing adrenaline junkies, but the human mind actually functions more inventively in a low threat, high freedom environment. Compare the standard of living in the Soviet Union vs. the West. Thanks, but I think I’ll pass on the goose stepping goonery of K threat as a rhetorical device. Pavlovian stimulus-response training may be good for circus animal acts, but it’s utter hell on one’s self-image as a free, sentient, sovereign individual created in God’s image. You want survival advantage, make yourself smarter, make your kids smarter, make your government representatives smarter.
If I want to convince you, specifically, in debate, that is what I would use.
But bear in mind, you have people who think the answer to a mass murderer killing children is to establish a gun free zone around a school, and make the penalty a misdemeanor. How much do you think logic and white hot truth will affect those idiots? Liberals think differently. fMRI’s show their brains are lighting up differently. Psychological tests show different cognitive characteristics. Even MRIs of their brains show structural differences.
I suspect that the difference between us is, I ran into a gross defective, and saw just how differently another person can think. It can almost be like they are a different species, detached from logic. Once that happens, all the logic and white hot truth won’t do a thing. You need to know what hurts them, and how to apply it.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a really smart sibling?
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