Posted on 02/07/2011 9:37:23 PM PST by Kartographer
Make that 3 years minimum, plus seeds to grow your own.
Clearly you have a great ability to make scripture fit your view of how things are to be.
“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.”
Matthew 7:15
Nehemiah 4:
11Our enemies said, “They will not know or see until we come among them, kill them and put a stop to the work.”
12When the Jews who lived near them came and told us ten times, “They will come up against us from every place where you may turn,”
13then I stationed men in the lowest parts of the space behind the wall, the exposed places, and I (J)stationed the people in families with their swords, spears and bows.
14When I saw their fear, I rose and spoke to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people: “(K)Do not be afraid of them; remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and (L)fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses.”
15When our enemies heard that it was known to us, and that (M)God had frustrated their plan, then all of us returned to the wall, each one to his work.
16From that day on, half of my servants carried on the work while half of them held the spears, the shields, the bows and the breastplates; and the captains were behind the whole house of Judah.
17Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon.
18As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me.
19I said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “The work is great and extensive, and we are separated on the wall far from one another.
20”At whatever place you hear the sound of the trumpet, rally to us there. (N)Our God will fight for us.”
21So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared.
22At that time I also said to the people, “Let each man with his servant spend the night within Jerusalem so that they may be a guard for us by night and a laborer by day.”
23So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.
YOu’re assuming “once saved always saved” and that rebellion is not a damnable sin.
I am? How can you tell?
What kind of rebellion? Against whom?
Plenty of accounts of Jesus taking people on tours of Hell, and there being Christians there.
So?
Why would you consider that reliable?
I wouldn’t play Russian Roulette with your soul.
How am I doing that?
Exactly what works do I need to do to ensure my salvation then?
What does all this have to do with wanting to see Christ return soon and have all the end times prophecy fulfilled?
It is hard to tell by the picture, but is it the Tactical Federal Law Enforcement 2 3/4 Magnum with flitecontrol wad, 00 buck, LE132?
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Bulk 12-Gague buckshot loaded to law-enforcement specifications with nine pellets of 00 buckshot in a 2-3/4” shell. Stock up now on this great value. Includes new mil-spec metal ammo can ($20 value.) 175 rounds.
mm:Personally, I’m getting to the point that I’d just as soon get it over with.
YOu’re assuming “once saved always saved” and that rebellion is not a damnable sin.
I am? How can you tell?
Name a sin that is not a damnable sin.
***
What kind of rebellion? Against whom?
Against the government. See Romans 13.
***
Plenty of accounts of Jesus taking people on tours of Hell, and there being Christians there.
So?
Why would you consider that reliable?
“Do not scoff at prophecies,”
http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-20.htm
What makes you think they are NOT reliable.
***
I wouldn’t play Russian Roulette with your soul.
How am I doing that?
If you take up arms against the government, hate the people God put there, etc, yes, that’s a gamble I wouldn’t take.
***
Exactly what works do I need to do to ensure my salvation then?
I preached first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that all must repent of their sins and turn to God—and prove they have changed by the good things they do.
Acts 26:20
***
What does all this have to do with wanting to see Christ return soon and have all the end times prophecy fulfilled?
My bad. I assumed wrongly you were talking about an eagerness to see revolt in this country against Obama.
There are way more ordinary citizens than the NG or US military; plus, many in the NG and US military will not follow orders to shoot on law abiding US citizens. I am sure of this.
Maybe the soldiers that will shoot at us will be forces
from the united nations.
The antecedent to *it* in “get it over with”, is *prophecy*.
No generation wants to be the one to see the end times prophecy fulfilled, but I’d just as soon get that (the prophecy) over with.
That’s all I was saying.
As far as revolt against the government, technically, you could accuse the Founding Fathers of that as well. Did they not revolt against the God ordained authority that existed in their day?
Would you say they were damned for rebellion for that?
I consider Bible prophecy reliable. I do not consider the claimed visions and experiences of everyone who claims to have one reliable.
One is expected to exercise discernment. To me that includes not believing everything that comes down the pike, including, especially including, things that seem to contradict or conflict with Scripture.
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no one can boast.(Eph 2:8-9)
If perfection of works is required, then that is not trusting Christ alone for salvation, it is trusting Christ plus whatever it is you add to it.
And heaven will be an awfully lonely place.
Did they not revolt against the God ordained authority that existed in their day?
YES
Would you say they were damned for rebellion for that?
I don’t know. I hope they repented. I don’t know of any sin that is not damnable.
Granted, the devil can give visions and dreams. But for dreams and visions given to believers, the benefit of the doubt should be toward believing them, not toward not believing them.
Judge for yourself: http://www.amazon.com/While-Body-Hell-Living-Dead/dp/1589393546 and http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Revelation-Hell-Mary-Baxter/dp/0883682796/ref=pd_cp_b_2
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works ...
Yeah, but as Bible students, we read that through the lens of the rest of the Bible, which includes verses like Acts 26:20, and the book of James, which is about the works that accompany a saved life by grace through faith.
>And heaven will be an awfully lonely place.
But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
http://bible.cc/matthew/7-14.htm
Maybe the soldiers that will shoot at us will be forces
from the united nations.
That is when we start collecting blue helments.
I urge you and anyone interested to read this:
7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.
8 Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia: and the children of Israel served Chushan-rishathaim eight years.
9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother.
10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
11 And the land had rest forty years. And Othniel the son of Kenaz died.
Judges 3:7-11.
Are some revolutions approved by God? Why are some revolutions in the Bible supported by the Lord, and others not? Was the American Revolution blessed and approved of by God? What makes a revolution a Righteous Revolution?
A Righteous Revolution is a revolution that is God approved, God supported, and God blessed. Our passage gives a picture of a righteous revolution. The people had forgotten the Lord to serve Baalim and the groves. (Speaking of groves, the children of Israel was often rebuked for Moloch worship.) Because of this wickedness, the Lord punished them. He allowed them to be conquered and enslaved by their enemies. They lived under this tyranny for eight years. The people tired of the oppression, and cried out to the Lord in repentance. The Lord heard them, and rose up a deliverer, Othniel. The Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and the Lord through him overthrew the enemy.
From the passage above, we can see three requirements for a righteous revolution: a repentance among the people, a legitimate reason to revolt, and a leadership that is lead by the Lord.
Repentance of National and Personal Sin
In order for a revolution to be righteous, the people must be righteous. The people must TURN from their wicked ways. In the passage above, the Israelites cried out in repentance unto the Lord. This shows that the PEOPLE (and not just the leaders) must turn from their sins. The nation must humble itself before the Lord in sorrow and repentance, in prayer and fasting, and ask Him to forgive their sins. God will never honor the desire of people to be free if they continue to willing entangle themselves in sin. How can God be with us if we are not pleasing Him? How can God be for us if we are against Him? NO revolution for freedom will be successful if the people first do not allow themselves to be freed from the bondage of sin. A revolution will never be righteous if the participants are not right with the Lord. A mass repentance is required for any revolution to be honored by the Lord, because tyranny and oppression almost always is divine judgment on national sin.
Jesus Christ must rule and reign in hearts. Jesus came into this world to defeat tyranny. Sin is the number one tyrant. Sin rules over even the devil. Jesus Christ defeated the tyranny of sin by His death and resurrection. Sin bondage must be overthrown before physical bondage is overthrown. A large majority of the population must repent and seek the Lord. Ideally, the entire population should repent. But since this is a rarity, we rely on a a righteous majority. A repentance must precede a Righteous Revolution.
Righteous Cause
Second, for a revolution to be righteous, it must have a legitimate cause. There must be very good reasons to overthrow and replace a current government. The Israelites had a legitimate cause. They had been conquered and enslaved.
Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. Proverbs 3:30.
Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips. Proverbs 24:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: ... Matt 5:22.
The American Founding Fathers realized this, as stated in the Declaration of Independence:
“Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath sown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
For a cause to be legitimate, the existing government must have proven itself derelict in it’s basic duties to man. Exodus 18:21 states that rulers must be able men that fear God, honest and not covetous or greedy. Romans 13 states that the duty of government is to punish the evildoers and praise the good doers. “The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God” (2 Samuel 23:3). Now, if a government is full of God-rejecting, lying, greedy reprobates that reward the wicked and punish the just, this would be a reasonable cause for revolution. (Most likely, however, this tyranny is divine judgment on national sins.) Revolution must not be over trifles. It must remain a LAST RESORT when all other avenues have failed.
Led of God
Thirdly, the revolution leadership must be lead of and anointed by God. We read many places in the Old Testament where the Spirit of the Lord lead the appointed deliverer to overthrow the oppressor, including the text above. For a revolution to be a Righteous Revolution, it must be led of God. The leaders (the “deliverers” in the Biblical sense) must be possessed by the Spirit of the Lord, must seek Him, must submit to His authority, and must seek guidance from Him. Remember 2 Corinthians 3:17: “[W]here the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” The Spirit of the Lord came upon Othniel, and he went out to war. The Lord raised up Ehud against Eglon (Judges 4:15). The Spirit of the Lord was upon Gideon against the Midianites (Judges 6:34). In Judges 7, we notice that the Lord speaks to Gideon, and Gideon listens and obeys. Gideon was led of the Lord. The Lord God is his Commander-in-Chief, giving him his military orders. Gideon obeys, and the oppressor is defeated. For a revolution to be and remain a righteous revolution, it’s leaders must seek and follow guidance from the Almighty.
SNIP
SNIP
On June 1, 1774, the day on which the British were to begin a blockade of Boston, a day of prayer and fasting was held through the colonies (Quoted in Federer, 58). In the midst of the blockade, the President of the Provincial Congress of Massachusetts John Hancock called the crisis the righteous judgment of God, and implored the people to repent of their sins:
We think it is incumbent upon this people to humble themselves before God on account of their sins, for He hath been pleased in His righteous judgment to suffer a great calamity to befall us, as the present controversy between Great Britain and the Colonies. [And] also to implore the Divine Blessing upon us, that by the assistance of His grace, we may be enabled to reform whatever is amiss among us, that so God may be pleased to continue to us the blessings that we enjoy, and remove the tokens of His displeasure, by causing harmony and union to be restored between Great Britain and the Colonies. (Quoted in Federer, 59)
So it can be seen from these few instances that people were humbling themselves before the Lord and repenting of their sins leading up to and during the American Revolution. Some even saw the British tyranny as the judgment of the Almighty. All of these factors indicate that the American Revolution met the requirement for repentance.
The second requirement for a righteous revolution is a legitimate cause to replace the existing government. As documented in the Declaration of Independence, there was indeed a righteous cause for revolution. The colonists had repeatedly petitioned the British Crown for redress of grievances, and received only more oppression in return:
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms. Our repeated Petition have been answered only by repeated injury...
(Declaration of Independence)
Since the king and Parliament refused to hear their cry, they appealed “to the Supreme Judge of the world,” bringing their complaint to the court of the Lord. This shows that not only did the Founding Fathers have a legitimate cause for revolt, but they also sought leadership and direction from God.
There is very much proof that many of the revolutionaries regularly sought guidance from the Lord. I will cite but a few examples. George Washington was known as a man of prayer:
And now, Almighty Father, if it is Thy holy will that we shall obtain a place and name among the nations of the earth, grant that we may be enabled to show our gratitude for Thy goodness by our endeavors to fear and obey Thee. Bless us with Thy wisdom in our counsels, success in battle, and let all our victories be tempered with humanity. Endow, also, our enemies with enlightened minds, that they become sensible of their injustice, and willing to restore our liberty and peace. Grant the petition of Thy servant, for the sake of Him whom Thou hast called Thy beloved Son [ie Jesus Christ]; nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done.
George Washington (Quoted in Federer, 644).
John Adams called for a National Fast Day (Federer, 11). Concerning seeking guidance from God and His Word the Bible, Adams wrote:
Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God...What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.
This can be read in full at:
http://www.preservedword.com/article.php?id=51
Were the Jews that participated in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising against their government also damned?
... all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...
I would ask are those who illegally escaped Germany or any one who did not obediently report to the ovens as ordered or anyone who hid those ordered or helped them escape guilty of the same sin and need to ask for forgiveness for opposing their Government?
Are the members of the French underground the Free French who organized and return to their coutry to fight the French Vichy government guilty as well?
Were the Poles and the Hungrians who rose up against their Communist government are they damned as well?
How about any East Germans who escaped over the wall to the freedom of West Germany? Did those that the East Greman soliders shoot down as they tried to cross die in sin then?
For that matter, what about the apostles in the early church in the book of Acts?
They were ordered to stop preaching the Gospel and what did they do?
And when Saul was persecuting the early church and Stephen was stoned?
Shouldn’t those early believers have submitted to the authority over them and rather be thrown in jail and killed instead of fleeing and taking the Gospel with them?
I don’t see in Scripture that God demands that we just roll over and expose our jugular at everyone who presumes to have authority over us to tell us what to do.
Thanks for the post and link in post 94.
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