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This paper was co-authored by Freeper PowerBaby, when replying, please post to both of us. We wrote this paper a year ago, PowerBaby was 12, and NattieShea was 13; this is the first paper that we have co-authored. We are homeschooled by our Dad, Carry_Okie.

Our Dad had the idea of analyzing current issues for the underlying moral values, then analyzing Roman history to compare the effects of those morals in ancient times. It took us a year to write and research. As it was difficult for us to decide upon a thesis, our Dad helped us write both our thesis and our conclusion. He also read and commented on several sections to exemplify what he expected. We read most of the books in their entirety, some we read for pertinent information due to time constraints.

1 posted on 07/02/2007 12:09:36 PM PDT by NattieShea
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To: PowerBaby; Carry_Okie; WVNan; sauropod; Askel5; Boot Hill; DaveLoneRanger; Teacher317; ...

You showed an interest in my paper ‘Seven Stars for Aslan,’ some six years ago, so I thought I would ping you to this one.


2 posted on 07/02/2007 12:18:55 PM PDT by NattieShea ("Read your Bible: you'll never know when you'll need it." -George S Patton)
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby
The people of Rome attacked reformers and Christians that confronted their decadence. Their dependency upon the patricians so spoiled them that they neglected their own defense. The patricians could not bear the entire burden of maintaining the Empire and it collapsed. Whether Rome was a Republic or Empire, neither government could endure over a morally corrupt society.

Your conclusion seems like another familiar country but I can't put my finger which one that is...

Seriously though, I couldn't read all of it but it looks to be a comprehensive look at what happened.

Why did you write it? As a HS project?

3 posted on 07/02/2007 12:23:06 PM PDT by subterfuge (Today, Tolerance =greatest virtue;Hypocrisy=worst character defect; Discrimination =worst atrocity)
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To: RJayneJ; DallasMike; KfromMich; Edmund; Prince Caspian; conservatism_IS_compassion; BigBadWolf; ...

You guys seemed interested in my paper “Seven Stars for Aslan” six years ago, so I thought you might like this one too.


4 posted on 07/02/2007 12:28:19 PM PDT by NattieShea ("Read your Bible: you'll never know when you'll need it." -George S Patton)
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To: betty boop; amom; cornelis
How is this for young scholars!

Carry_Okie had better watch out, these younguns are going to rule the planet.

6 posted on 07/02/2007 12:30:18 PM PDT by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free...their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: rec; Mr. Nuke Buzzcut; Amerigomag; Artist; calcowgirl
Read it and bleep! :-)
7 posted on 07/02/2007 12:38:15 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby
Hardly a scholar of Rome, but as I recall, Octavius, who was styled Augustus after ascension to total control, held that control deftly and without needing to style himself, Emperor in his lifetime. I will try and source that opinion after the fourth and post it to you.

That nitpicking however is not at odds with your conclusions that the Patricians bought off the rest of society with "a government that functions" to turn a phrase. The period after the Republic was full of attempts from members of the Empire to appeal to Republican virtue and forms and thereby gain legitimacy for their maintaining a firm hold on power.

Thanks for posting this. A welcome diversion.

8 posted on 07/02/2007 12:45:09 PM PDT by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free...their passions forge their fetters.)
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To: NattieShea

Just one correction I’d like to make. Constantine didn’t create the papacy, Jesus did when he annointed Peter as the person who would serve as the rock who his church would be built upon

The statement I just made is not a statement that can conclusively be made to be an objective statement of fact, and neither is the one I responded to. The official position of the church is my position, Peter was the first pope, and in general, we’re given the liberty of it. For political reasons, non-Catholic denominations, have to say that Constantine created it, or else they run a real theological risk in not following what is the original denomination

That one statement should have subjectivity noted, other than that though, seems to describe the United States.


9 posted on 07/02/2007 1:36:55 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby

WOW! You did it! It will take me two days to read all that. I’m so proud of you me girls. Dad has to be very proud of you both. I can tell just by scanning that you have done college level work on this. I’ll be in and out on this thread. Will mark it.


10 posted on 07/02/2007 1:52:49 PM PDT by WVNan
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby; Carry_Okie
A lovely paper, and my congratulations to both of you. The reasons for the rise and fall of Rome would themselves fill a small encyclopedia even without the references. You have, I sense, found that to ascribe events of this proportion to single causes is an exercise in futility.

But the choice of the progress of Virtue within its history is a thread that many of the great commentators have settled upon. May I suggest one such to you? He is Niccolo Machiavelli and his treatise is Discourses On The First Ten Books Of Titus Livy, commonly shortened to The Discourses. People who know him only as the author of the occasionally frightening The Prince are only hearing a minor part of his story.

The topic is Virtue, or more precisely Virtù - his theme is your theme, his subject material yours as well. For Machiavelli this incorporated the relations between citizen and government as well as those between individuals. His focus was on the role played by Virtù in the decay and downfall of the Republic in favor of the Caesarean monarchy to follow. Livy himself was writing during the accession of Augustus and so had to be very circumspect about direct criticism; Machiavelli was under no such restriction.

It helps to know that Machiavelli was a fierce defender of his own Florentine Republic (its Minister of Defense at one point) and so was most interested in the maintenance of representative government and its host society, and why both tend to decay and fall into despotism. Since Florence did precisely that under the Medici and it cost him, in order, dismissal, impoverishment, and a turn on the rack, you might suspect that his thoughts on the topic were a very personal matter indeed.

It's just a thought if this sort of thing continues to interest you. Now close your ears a minute while I tell your Dad how proud of you he ought to be. ;-)

11 posted on 07/02/2007 2:21:49 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billie; Mama_Bear; daisyscarlett; dutchess; dansangel; Aquamarine; Diver Dave; JustAmy; lodwick; ...
And now a word from AFew of FR's Finest....Every Day 09-16-02

You all posted on that thread, so I thot you'd be interested in the girls' progress.

14 posted on 07/02/2007 2:59:54 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby; Carry_Okie

Outstanding! Bookmarking for further reading.

Thanks for the ping, Dad.


16 posted on 07/02/2007 3:16:32 PM PDT by Diver Dave
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby

A very good summary of the rise and fall of Roman society.
May God save America from the same fate.


24 posted on 07/02/2007 7:28:18 PM PDT by Aquamarine
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To: NattieShea; Carry_Okie
Very impressive work, NattieShea and Freeper PowerBaby! A most enjoyable and instructive read. No wonder the public school monopolists resent (and probably fear) the growing trend toward homeschooling....

Congratulations, Carry-Okie, for schooling these young ones so very well. I'd stand this paper up against anything on this subject written by a Harvard senior.... Possibly the latter's work would not measure up to this standard.

All, keep up the great work!

25 posted on 07/03/2007 9:19:20 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: NattieShea

A couple questions:
what is virtue?;
what is morality?.


26 posted on 07/03/2007 9:22:04 AM PDT by RightWhale (It's Brecht's donkey, not mine)
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To: B4Ranch
Bonk.
27 posted on 07/03/2007 1:45:57 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby

bump for later read.

Congrats. Well done.


29 posted on 07/03/2007 4:11:21 PM PDT by khnyny
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby; Carry_Okie

Wow! You young ladies did one heck of a job! Congratulations.

I must admit much ignorance in this subject. I’m afraid my public school education many moons ago doesn’t hold a candle to the depth and breadth of subject-matter you two are exposed to. I see certain success in your future, whatever you choose to pursue.

Carry_Okie: my sincere apologies for not having seen this ping in my inbox until now.
I am sure you are very proud, as you should be. Thank you for pinging me.


42 posted on 07/04/2007 5:29:48 PM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: NattieShea

Ping for later reading


48 posted on 07/16/2007 6:47:52 AM PDT by chilepepper (The map is not the territory -- Alfred Korzybski)
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To: NattieShea; PowerBaby; Carry_Okie

I don’t have time to read this but I’m fascinated. Bump for later and kudos to an amazing family.


50 posted on 07/16/2007 11:14:25 AM PDT by Kevmo (We need to get away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party ~Duncan Hunter)
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To: NattieShea

bookmark


52 posted on 07/16/2007 11:23:34 AM PDT by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet -Fred'08)
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