Posted on 11/08/2015 9:36:32 AM PST by yoe
When blind partisanship overtook integrity. I would submit that it is down but not out...;’)
And your point is?
No other nation on the face of the earth had slave owners willing to launch a terribly bloody war to defend slavery.
Slavery-based agriculture was already on the way out in 1861, and absent the real causes of the War of Northern Aggression, would have ended in a decade or so for economic reasons.
And replaced with what?
Such prevarication as I’ve never seen. ‘’We’re entitled to our own opinion, not our own facts’’. This seems lost on you. The most specious part of your post is this gem:’’Loyalty is not owed to the government but to the Constitution’’. Read the oath given to those who serve in the US Military and what it states. Am I an American? Yes, what are you that you defend treasonous slave owners from a hundred and fifty-four years ago? It seems quite obvious to me you’re sorry the South lost the war and wish it hadn’t so today you might be some other kind of American or a facsimile thereof. Are you indeed sorry the South lost?
Only the shooting has stopped. For now.
“No other nation on the face of the earth had slave owners willing to launch a terribly bloody war to defend slavery.”
Riiiight, 300,000 Confederates died for other men’s right to own slaves, just as I would be happy to die for the Wookie’s right to $500 lobster dinners.
**Slavery-based agriculture was already on the way out in 1861, and absent the real causes of the War of Northern Aggression, would have ended in a decade or so for economic reasons.**
“And replaced with what?”
The same things that actually did replace it, of course, only without the hideous loss of life and the despicable abuses of Reconstruction.
“Such prevarication as I’ve never seen.”
Nonsense. Where I have contradicted you, you are misinformed or uninformed. From now on, put “willfully” before both those adjectives.
“The most specious part of your post is this gem: “Loyalty is not owed to the government but to the Constitution.” Read the oath given to those who serve in the US Military and what it states.”
Why would you bring up something that proves you wrong? Here’s the oath I took:
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.[1]
Where does that call for loyalty to anything other than the Constitution?
“It seems quite obvious to me”
Seeing as how everything you’ve said here today has been wrong, I cannot seem to find any concern for your opinion.
“Are you indeed sorry the South lost?”
I am not foolish enough to think I can discern what would have happened had the Confederacy won. I tend to think the Confederate states would have rejoined the Union after they had ended slavery, but who knows? Perhaps England would have picked us off separately.
I will, however, leave you with this gem by H. L. Mencken, of whom I somewhat recklessly presume you will have heard:
“The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination—that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.”
“When blind partisanship overtook integrity.”
Deceptively simple, but spot on.
***And your point is? ***
Lincoln was not on the ballot in the Southern states.
Texas
South Carolina
Arkansas
Tennessee
North Carolina
Mississippi
Louisiana
Georgia
Florida
Alabama.
And Lincoln won very few votes in ..
Maryland
Delaware
Missouri
Virginia,
as most voted for John Breckinridge.
Kentucky (John Bell, Constitution Party)
So the southerners felt they were being scourged with scorpions, they departed.
1Kings 12:
14 And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.
“His primary goal was to wrest control in the south from the slaver aristocracy to the people.”
So Johnson was Karl Marx’s spiritual ancestor. Thanks for clarifying that.
The Constitution is the document that sets up our governing system and encodes our rights as citizens of The United States . Our military defends the Constitution and the country it governs. The prevarication I mentioned is on your part. You’re all over the map rationalizing treason on the part of the Southern slave owning plutocracy that choose to go to war to preserve an economic system built on slave labor. The Confederacy would have rejoined the AFTER it won the war? And it would have ended slavery? Holy Smokes. You’re too much.
**England would have picked us off separately.**
Back in the 1840s, during the Oregon territories problems, England attempted to create an alliance between Canada, England, Mexico, and the new nation of TEXAS, against the USA, thus precipitating the Mexican War, when a horrified TEXAS joined the USA.
England was squarely behind the Confederate states, building warships and shipping tens of thousands of Enfield rifles to the South. they did not recognize the Confederacy yet.
“The prevarication I mentioned is on your part.”
Look, I’m sorry that you don’t seem to understand the most basic facts, but it’s really not my problem.
If I wished you ill, I would encourage you to continue bloviating along these same lines.
Bye now.
And even without being on the ballot in those states Lincoln still won 60% of the electoral votes. Had Lincoln been on the ballots then he still would not have taken those states but still would have won the election.
So the southerners felt they were being scourged with scorpions, they departed.
The election complied with the Constitution in every respect. So what you're saying is that when the Constitution worked then the states walked out.
I can't speak for you but yeah, Davis sent hundreds of thousands of men to their deaths to defend the institution of slavery.
The same things that actually did replace it, of course, only without the hideous loss of life and the despicable abuses of Reconstruction.
The only reason it was replaced was because the Southern slave owners lost their chattel. They would not have done that voluntarily.
If you want to believe that I won’t stand in your way.
“I can’t speak for you but yeah, Davis sent hundreds of thousands of men to their deaths to defend the institution of slavery.”
And how did he “send them?” Did he say to them, “You who will never own a slave, or even have enough money to command the respect of a slave, must lay down your lives so that I will not lose my slaves and my great wealth”?
Is that how he did it? Come on, I cannot believe that you think *you* would have marched off to protect Jeff Davis’s slaves. Try, really try, to imagine that the average Confederate was as reasonable as you are. I know you’ve been conditioned to believe that they were horrible monsters, just slavering to maintain an institution that benefitted them in no way, but that’s not even plausible. Not in the real world.
“The only reason it was replaced was because the Southern slave owners lost their chattel. They would not have done that voluntarily.”
You are apparently unaware of the ongoing manumission of slaves in the decades leading up to the war. You are also failing to take into account economic trends and resource depletion that was fast rendering slavery-based agriculture economically untenable.
Do you think the slave-owners were stupid? Do you think they would have clung to slavery even if it impoverished them? When they discovered that they couldn’t stay rich with slavery, they’d have dumped it like a hot potato.
Started a war. Extended their enlistments for the duration of it. Drafted a lot of them.
You are apparently unaware of the ongoing manumission of slaves in the decades leading up to the war.
Yes, I am. Want to enlighten us?
You are also failing to take into account economic trends and resource depletion that was fast rendering slavery-based agriculture economically untenable.
How so?
When they discovered that they couldn’t stay rich with slavery, they’d have dumped it like a hot potato.
And replace it with what?
SO, if OBAMA had won the election today WITHOUT being on the ballots of half the states would those states stood for it?
He WAS on the ballots so the states have to live with it.
Lincoln still was NOT on the ballots of the southern states so the people felt they had no choice in the matter and a man not elected or rejected by them was forced upon them.
Besides, the problems began back before 1832 and 1833, it was not slavery at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_Crisis
The basic fact is the South started a war it had every intention of winning and instead it lost. That’s something you “Lost Cause’’ types just can’t accept.
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