Skip to comments.Why Confederates are taken for granted! (Like conservatives today?)
Posted on 03/21/2012 7:21:07 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
The Confederates of the Southern movement are like the conservatives of the Republican Party, the leaders believe they have no choice!
The parallels occurring in America between the 2012 election year, what is occurring in America as a nation and in the South, and the events of 150 years ago are startling.
While most Americans have some knowledge of the GOP Primary, few have any idea of the Sesquicentennial (the 150th Anniversary of the Civil War) and the events occurring in the Southern movement. And yet, what is occurring is like mirror reflections of one another.
Let's start with what most people know about, the GOP primary. Mitt Romney is the sweetheart of the northeast Republicans. He is super rich, someone keenly involved in the international economy. He is a social liberal, the father of Romney Care, the proto type of Obama Care. He is not Christian, or at least his faith, Mormonism, is not Christian and this suits the northeast elite who revile the Christian faith. God has no place at the governing table. Heavily Catholic in the northeast, it is also heavily liberal. Abortion starts and ends there, along with feminism.
There is a strong Jewish constituency in the northeast, and though divided on many issues, many Jews see America as an extension of Israel. Not the other way around... American foreign policy revolves around Israel. We are in two wars, and threatening a third for Israel's security not our own.
Former Governor of a blue, dark blue state, Mitt Romney is keenly aware of all the above.
But Romney can't win a majority of Republican votes anywhere. He has spent maybe twenty million dollars and the best he can do is garner about 35% of the vote in any state. Why? Because the conservative core of the Party rejects him. Its instinctual. Its not Rush, or Hannity. They have no effect on this. Neither does Beck, a Mormon who I would bet is committed to Romney. Beck has backed away recently, but his fangs have already shown.
So if the conservative base will not support Romney in the Primaries how is it that the GOP elite think Romney can beat Obama? ( Maybe they don't, but that's for a different article. ) Because the Republican elite, the Neo Cons, the Karl Roves, the Bush's, et. el figure the conservatives have nowhere else to go. If Romney is the nominee, if he is forced on the party, they will have no choice but support him. Some conservatives may stay home, but the Republican elite just can't believe enough of the conservative base would stay home, or vote for Obama to give the Democrats the win. So conservatives...once again, as you have time and again, you will have to accept the lesser of two evils. You know like McCain and Bob Dole, this is the best we can do. Suck it up! ( an old Army expression.)
For most of us conservatives we know the story. Its burned in our political memories.
Well, the parallel is in the South. For most of the nation the Sesquicentennial doesn't mean much. Many Americans ancestors arrived after the war. Italians, central Europeans, Greeks, and almost all the Latino's have no direct connection to the war, or the division of the nation. In fact, most of these people have no connection to the founding of the nation. They came for material wealth, not liberty and freedom. In their mind, government is supposed to provide. The Tenth Amendment, what's that?
But in the South, where there is a tie to Robert E. Lee, the Confederacy, and southern nationalism, the Sesquicentennial is more than a minor occurrence. If you have ever seen the movie "Sweet Home Alabama" it accurately portrays what occurs in the South every year! The Sesquicentennial is NOT the only time reenactments occur, its just when the biggest ones do. A special effort is made.
Recent work at Texas A & M on genealogical formula's indicates that between 50 and 80 million Americans have blood that traces back to a Southern ancestor. That would be one sixth to one fourth of all Americans. Pretty sizeable crew.
But the Sesquicentennial is occurring during the Obama Presidency and there seems to be a real effort, though hidden and underground, to reduce the Southern Pride. Example; the Museum of the Confederacy (M.o.C.) Located in the heart of Richmond, the capitol of the Olde Confederacy, the Museum occupies prized ground that surrounding hospitals or other businesses want. The pressure has been on them a long time to get out. So, this year, the M.o.C. opens its first extension. Many of us believe the opening of the extensions will allow the Museum to leave Richmond eventually.
But the selection for the first opening is evidence that Yankee interests have invested the museum.
Is the first opening in the lovely Shenandoah where Jackson beat three Union armies in one campaign? No. Oh I know, its off Interstate 95 at Chancellorsville, the site of Lee's greatest victory! NO. OK, maybe up closer to Washington, D.C. on the Manassas battlefield where the Confederacy won two major battles? Nope. So where?
Appomattox, the place where General Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia. You are kidding! For a Southerner, only Andersonville could be a worse location!
Nope, it's Appomattox. A location more than an hour from any interstate! A location not heavily visited. Great plan don't you think? Take the musuem out of Richmond and put it out in the middle of nowhere?
But the subtle attack on the Confederacy gets better. No Confederate flags will fly on poles outside the Museum of the Confederacy! Not one.
But hey, you Southerners dig into your pockets and shell out some money for the M.o.C.
The fight in the South goes well beyond this.
At THE CITADEL, in Charleston, South Carolina, where the cadets of this school fired the first shots of the war, this school played Dixie as its fight song at football games in the 70's. Confederate naval ensigns flew proudly on the RV's and cars outside the stadium at the cookouts before the game. Crimson red dominated the area surrounding the stadium
Crimson red still dominates, but its not the Confederate battle flag. And Dixie, well you don't hear that one anymore. THE CITADEL is not the only culprit. The University of Texas at Arlington, which used to be Arlington State College, and was known as the Rebels where Dixie was also played, is now the U.T.A. Mavericks. The effort to erase Southern history proceeds unabated. The heritage organizations responsible for defending the Cause, overwhelmed or apathetic shrink in inactivity. Oh yes, every once in awhile you will hear about a Court case. But with a potential base of 50 - 80 million Americans you would think they could make more than a whisper.
Where Gettysburg in Pennsylvania nets three hundred million in tourist monies every year, employing 6,000 people, battlefields in the South are hidden. When you drive into a Southern state go to their Visitor's center and look through the brochures for Maps about the Civil War. Probably won't find them. They are there but you have to ask at the counter. The north can prosper from the war, but the South...nope.
Groups like the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy treat Southern patriots like the GOP treats their conservative core. You have nowhere else to go so suck it up!
Ok, so why are you writing this article? Well Republicans remember you thought the conservatives would have no choice? If there is a parallel between the South and the GOP you better rethink that.
In the South, since the heritage organizations would not fight for the South, new groups have spontaneously arisen, and you know what. Much of the activists in these groups are members of the heritage organizations who are tired of inactivity and defeat without a fight. They are in the streets, and they call themselves Flaggers. They reject the passivity and leadership of the heritage organizations. They are causing more pressure on the enemies of the South, and getting more attention then anyone can believe. They are only a handful, but in a South tired of being kicked they are growing.
Well, the same could happen in November at the ballot box.
Sarah Palin is still with us. A candidacy by her would end Romney, nominee or not.
History does repeat itself...but this time the history is simultaneous. Patriotism is not dead. Individuals willing to fight for what they think is right, and who are tired of sorry leadership are on the move. Will it snowball? Let's watch.
The campaign to extirpate our nation’s Confederate heritage is relentless. In 2007, Dixie College in St. George, Utah changed its name from the Rebels to the Red Storm and discontinued the use of the Confederate flag. The Confederate Air Force, an organization dedicated to preserving historic aircraft, is now the Commemorative Air Force.
The Unionists, both north and south, fighting for the US Constitution in the US Civil War were those on the correct side, from an historical viewpoint. Portraying the Revolution of 1776 as disposable and/or marching in some KKK rally only helps the Obama gang.
Good time to mention the outstanding free Hillsdale Constitution 101 course.
Previous FR links to Constitution 101.
Yes, some of my ancestors fought in the Confederate Army. And some of my ancestors were literally burned out of Northern Alabama during Reconstruction because they resisted the abuses of that occupation.
BUT, other of my ancestors were born in Texas during the Republic or Texas. That ancestor also fought in the CW and was captured and sent to prison in NY. After the War he walked from NY back to Texas.
I have been a history student most of my life. I do not like to read CW history. I have studied much military history, but the period of the CW has no appeal to me.
Do the GOP leadership hold southerners in contempt? Yes.
Do we distrust them? Yes, for the reason of past experience.
I want no part of a 3rd Party. But after we eject these Commies who run our nation, there will be a 3rd party unless the GOP leadership grows up. My suspicion is, they won’t.
The South lost the war, but every American lost the 10th amendment after it was all said and done. That was pretty much the trade off.
Keeping alive that “peculiar institution”. At its core the south (irrespective or their right to secede) was fighting to maintain a system that kept 4 million human beings enslaved. I am not sure such a system should be celebrated. It should be remembered and even discussed extensively. Individuals in the South can be admired for their good qualities and studied for better understanding. The stories of the battle and bravery of those who fought, and the pain of those who suffered can be remembered (Sherman’s brutal march to crush the South for example). As far as I am concerned flying a Southern flag is close to flying a 3rd Reich swastika flag.
Nathan Bedford Forrest has a huge statute south of Nashville. I like to think that statue is there to celebrate his remarkable skill as a soldier, and not the fact that he was a slave trader and one of the founders of the KKK.
For information I was born in Virginia and went to High School in Mississippi and lived in Tennessee for five years. I have also read Foote’s 3 Volume history of the Civil War twice along with dozens of other books on early U.S. history.
Wrong. The War was not primarily about slavery. If it had been they would have simply let the states go their own way. They did not.
No sane person today defends slavery. At the time, there were many southerners who hated it. But slavery still exists today, but it is less obvious, and still very damaging. It is redefined. Now it is the Federal Government who wishes to make slaves of us all.
The south was defeated. But never subjected. Those echoes still reverberate in Texas. Texans will not quietly become slaves to the nanny state this time either.
Free Men need not ask permission.
If you think that the Civil War was not about slavery, you need to read the secession declarations adopted by the various states. They make it quite clear that they were fighting for slavery.
i agree...economics and power was the motivation.
a nice writeup on it http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/civilwar.html
the adams book he mentions was eye opening for me.
Of course it was about slavery. Every other consideration ever mentioned was adjunctive to the practice.
“The Confederate slavemasters were the worst kind of statists. “
Well that’s a new one; the proponents of State’s Rights and secession were the big ‘statists’- and the proponents of compulsory union and a vastly more powerful central government were what, exactly?
No, my FRiend, I do not need to read the declarations.
You simply will not understand what has taken 150 years to heal. The victors write history books.
Why do you think the Northern POLs hold the southern GOP voters in contempt? It is because they wish to be left alone to live their lives in peace. That is not acceptable for the POLs. Their life revolves around telling others what to do.
Capitalism is about freedom of action and that is being destroyed daily by the Federal Monster in DC.
I have been to Iowa many times. We have a lot in common with IA farmers here. Not with Iowa POLs.
Do you think you are more free today than you were as a child?
No, I did not think so.
Why is that happening?
Where do you get that statement? Created out of whole cloth?
Sometimes you just have to hoist the black flag and start cutting throats someone said...Heinlein I think?
We are not all one people now or ever. Nor are we only Republican and Democrat or Whig and Democrat or city or country or whatever the alliances call themselves today.
Take a quick read of........snip “An illuminating history of North America’s eleven rival cultural regions that explodes the red state-blue state myth.
North America was settled by people with distinct religious, political, and ethnographic characteristics, creating regional cultures that have been at odds with one another ever since. Subsequent immigrants didn’t confront or assimilate into an “American” or “Canadian” culture, but rather into one of the eleven distinct regional ones that spread over the continent each staking out mutually exclusive territory......illustrates and explains why “American” values vary sharply from one region to another. Woodard reveals how intranational differences have played a pivotal role at every point in the continent’s history, from the American Revolution and the Civil War to the tumultuous sixties and the “blue county/red county” maps of recent presidential elections. American Nations is a revolutionary and revelatory take on America’s myriad identities and how the conflicts between them have shaped our past and are molding our future.”
In here lay all the answers to many of your questions and arguments.
I view the Battle Flag as a war trophy and I can do anything I damn well want with it.....and I chose to fly it because I am the rebel this time. I had family on both sides and KNOW both were the losers as the sad state of our nation shows today.
The South should have freed the slaves and THEN declared independence as Longstreet says in Killer Angels. The CW is is all theater played against the background of today’s race baiters. Grant owned slaves until 1863.....Lee freed his in 1862. Jefferson Davis adopted a black son, Abe Lincoln wanted to ship them all back to Africa as they were in his mind too stupid to co-exist with whites.....tell me who was right? Both? Neither?
Some of the South seceded to protect their slave interests. However.....Virgina, Arkansas, Tennessee, and NC didn’t secede UNTIL April AFTER Lincoln called up troops to INVADE his own country. Again. Right? Wrong?
The telescope of history collapses men and events and almost always hides the truth with lies convenient to the age in which they are told.
Maybe he gets it from here; you’ll see a certain familiarity with the arguments we often see from the hard core South haters:
Maybe he gets it from here; you’ll see a certain familiarity with the arguments we often see from the hard core South haters:
Yes, the slavemasters were the worst kind of statists because they wanted to use the brute force of government to enforce human slavery.
All of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington, believed the Union to be perpetual. They did not favor a “vastly more powerful central government.” The Federal government was comparatively tiny until the 20th century.
BTW, the term “States Rights” was not much used until the segregation controversy of the 1950’s. The slavemasters were certainly not in favor of states rights. In fact, they wanted to forbid the states from outlawing slavery.
I simply do not want to discuss the subject.
It is impossible to convey to those not affected by the aftermath of the CW.
He has no ancestors who endured hardship and left their homes to move across 2 states to be left alone. To be left alone in a very harsh environment. Life was very difficult for those who settled here after that war, but far better than the subjection and corruption forced by the Radical Republican Federal Government.
There were no Republicans in Texas until the Left took over the Dems in the 1960’s. Texas is solid Republican now (not locally, too many die hards)
I have always been Republican, first Presidential ballot was cast for Richard Nixon.
Name a cited issue that wasn’t tied to the Particular Institution.
I had realtives on both sides and they all fought in the Trans Mississippi West and at the battle of Prairie Grove, against each other. Great family stories and I’ve managed to get records of my Confederate Great-great grandpa.
“Yes, the slavemasters were the worst kind of statists because they wanted to use the brute force of government to enforce human slavery.”
Evidently you have your own personal definition of ‘statist’ to suit your argument.
So, are you consistent enough to condemn George Washington as a statist? Two years before his death he tried to recover his slaves, Oney Judge and Hercules, who had run away while Washington was at the President’s House in Philadelphia.
“All of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington, believed the Union to be perpetual. “
Of course Founding Fathers such as Patrick Henry, George Mason, and Richard Henry Lee and the rest of the Anti Federalists didn’t believe any such thing. Their argument against ratification and consolidated government warned that it would destroy state sovereignty and lead to the destruction of freedom. And nothing in the Constitution states that the union is perpetual.
“BTW, the term States Rights was not much used until the segregation controversy of the 1950s”
Which is a comment without merit since the philosophy of State’s Rights goes go back to the founding generation. The Virginia and Kentucky Resolves of 1798 penned by Madison and Jefferson are classic arguments in favor of state’s rights. The Nullification/ Tariff of Abominations controversy of 1832 was based in state’s rights. And John Calhoun’s defense of states rights beginning in 1840 played a major role in leading to secession. Claiming that the idea of State’s Rights wasn’t significant until 1950... you need to study more.
I’m an American. Not a “Northerner’’ or a “Yankee’’. I’m an American. What are you?
I’ll tell you what 2nd. I bloody sick and tired of “Rebs’’, ‘’Yankees’’ “Southerners’’ and “Northerners ‘’, I’m bloody sick and f**King tired of “Bonnie Blue,’’ “Dixie’’ and the bloody “Battle Hymn of the Republic’’ too!. I’ve been mixing it up here with Johnny Reb wanna-bes living in their parents basements and their love of the bloody’’ Stars and Bars’’ and to Hell with Old Glory. I’ve had my life threatened on Civil War threads here, I’ve been cussed and done my own share of cussing, Lord forgive me and I say ENOUGH!! And you know something? THEY”RE NOT MY ENEMY!! OBAMA IS!! The f**king war is over! One hundred and fifty years already, it’s OVER! Who really won, huh? Who won? We’re all in the same boat now, aren’t we? This little douche bag in The White House is going to have us ALL in chains and he’s laughing his ass off that we’re still at each others throats over this. The Johnny Reb wanna-be’s call me a ‘’socialist Lincoln butt-boy’’. An “Obama-lover’’ as if I voted or would EVER have voted for the little Marxist s.o.b! I HATE HIM!! Do we want war between the States again? OKay, fine. Only this time lets not march at each other North and South, but lets march North and South TOGETHER and head straight for DC, as AMERICANS AND THROW THE LITTLE BASTARD OUT!!! Sorry 2nd. This is nothing to do with you. Just had to get this off my chest. Been a long day for me and not a good one. Probably shouldn’t have said this but there it is.
Of course, the South started the war as a pre-emptive strike against what it saw as a future existential threat to $3B worth of property, somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the value of all property in the South, including land, houses, etc.
What would we do today if someone threatened that kind of economic disruption to us? For purposes of comparison, the recent economic downturn resulted in a loss of property value of around 10%.
The power issue over which the war was fought was slaveowners' ultimate power over their "property." Slavery is at its root and core the ultimate antithesis of American values.
That this ultimate power was held by individuals rather than by the state as such is irrelevant. State power was, of course, required and used to ensure that the slaveowners retained this power.
Humans were never meant to have such power over other humans. The vast majority of us are incapable of exercising it wisely and fairly, and none of us has the moral right to do so. The moral principle by which we oppose expansion of federal power is exactly the same one that makes slavery repugnant to any real American.
The man who defines his own right to freedom in terms of denying that same freedom to others has no right to the proud name of American.
As a Southerner, you have to fight half the people here on FR over CW stuff.
I was born in MO, which was one of the Confederate states, or at least the Confederacy said it was. The state fought its own internal civil war, as well as a border war with KS during the larger war. I have ancestors who fought for the South, and others who fought for the Union.
Liberals would love nothing more than to tar all conservatives with support for the Confederacy and all its racist baggage. Racism was endemic in the whole country at the time, to be sure, but only the Confederacy proclaimed it to be its Cornerstone.
As long as Jim Rob allows, I will respond on such threads in such a way that no honest person reading the thread will be able to come away saying that all conservatives are Confed sympathizers.
As Grant said, Confederates fought with enormous bravery and honor. Unfortunately, the cause for which they fought was one of the worst in history.
Article I Section 9(4) - No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
In other words, slavery can never be abolished. Not by the confederate government, not by the individual states.
This constitution was adopted on March 11, 1861. On February 19, 1861 Alexander II abolished serfdom in the Russian Empire - not, I might note, a bastion of progress in the 19th Century. Someone was going in the wrong direction, and it wasn't the Russians.
Protection of NE industry by tariff which was retaliated by European tariff on agricultural products.
Money talks. Did then too.
Like when re-elected the Commie Quisling residing at 1600 Penn. Ave. by Executive Order "nationalised" the Oil Industry? Yep, it was about money & property (horrible definition)
In 2007 Dixie College in St. George, Utah applied for State University status as part of an expansion effort which includes a campus in..Hurricane Utah.
What conservative principle would you cite that prevents them from changing their team name to the Red Storm?
Nice. Disagree with the neo-confeds and you’re labeled (or libeled - your pick) “hard core South hater” and further slandered with insinuations of being a marxist. All of which is the same as saying that you support the treasonous actions of the insurrectionists therefore you must be getting your information from NAMBLA.
So, are you a charter member?
Tariffs were cited by the seceding states, but subordinate or attendant to slavery. And with the south dominating both Congress and the White House for most of the years preceding the Civil War the best that could be said of it (or the worst against it) was that this was all part of the give & take between states and regions of the country and to say that tariffs were responsible for the insurrection would be tantamount to saying that they rebelled because they didn’t like the drapes.
Slavery, especially in the context of expansion into the territories was at the heart of the souths reason to rebel.
What's conservative about a Red Storm?
I thought at least you could have launched into a soliloquy about tradition and long times gone but not forgotten.
Thanks for playing anyway.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that that they should have been prevented from changing their name.
I'm too busy to re-fight the War of Southern Independence with you. If you're happy with political correctness, then so be it.
Sounds like that's their choice. Either the war was too painful a memory, or Southerners don't want to be typecast as Jubilation T. Cornpone Confederates.
And it makes sense, doesn't it? If you've got climate, new roads, low taxes, and less expensive housing, are you really going to want to identify your state with our bloodiest war?
But I suspect Pennsylvania presents Gettysburg as just one of many historical and scenic areas. Virginia does the same thing. Push Williamsburg, and people who have other historical interests will visit them as well.
One thing this guy doesn't mention, though. It's not 1890 or 1930 any more, not a question of the poor South and the arrogant rich Yankees. Some Southerners who harp on past poverty are pretty quick to put down Northern cities and states that they've outstripped economically.
Fortunately there are fewer LCL “Fergit, Hell!” types with each successive generation.
Re-read Mr. Longstreet’s fictional sequence of steps.....free the slaves THEN declare independence.
Then for kicks, read the book I suggested....The 11 Nations of North America....and the few others it mentions as well like Albion’s Seed.
The slave masters of the deep south were just one of three “nations” that seceded in 1860/1. Each national culture(the Tidewater Elite, parts of the Appalachians, and the Deep Southern) each seceded for its own reasons. Only the slave masters for slavery.
My mothers family in WV fought for the Reb’s purely because they hated meddling Yankees and still do. My father’s Unionist family in WV hid runaway slaves and smuggled in English manufacture from Canada via their hardware business to beat the tariffs.
The families lived 7 miles apart. There are a million similar stories.
Both sides were right and both were wrong. 600,000 died and we are all still struggling with the results.
Histories, like people, are never simple.
Za Rodinu ee svaboda!
In any case the confederate constitution was specifically crafted to make the abolition of slavery impossible.
NAMBLA? That must be a group you have on your mind for you to bring it up out of the blue like that. It fits you.
As for “hard core South haters” I didn’t mention any names. But the hit dog howls.
Exactly what I thought when you brought up marxists. The subject fits you perfectly.
By definition, "Founding Fathers" were those who wrote and then voted to ratify the new Constitution.
Those who voted against the Constitution were not Founding Fathers.
They were instead, as their political name accurately describes: "anti-Federalists".
Anti-Federalists had their say, they lost the vote, and a new "more perfect Union" was ratified to replace the old "perpetual" Articles of Confederation.
“By definition, “Founding Fathers” were those who wrote and then voted to ratify the new Constitution.
Those who voted against the Constitution were not Founding Fathers.”
Oh? So what are you, the world’s authority on the subject?
Well, sadly you’re not. In fact it’s evident you’re not even much of a student of the subject.
Here’s a definition a bit more impartial than your self-serving attempt at ‘begging the question’, a logical fallacy attractive to sloppy thinkers; note the use of “or” in the following definition, and if you don’t know why “or” is significant find someone to explain it to you:
“The Founding Fathers of the United States of America were political leaders and statesmen who participated in the American Revolution by creating the United States Declaration of Independence, taking part in the American Revolutionary War, establishing the United States Constitution, or by some other key contribution. “
In that article is a list of Founding Fathers. And, surprise surprise, the list includes George Mason, Patrick Henry, and Richard Henry Lee.
Now run along and find some thread where they like to indulge in make-believe, your material will at least fit in there.
Fits me perfectly? Hardly, I don’t subscribe to the Marx and Engel’s interpretation of the American Civil War.
I brought up Marx and Engels because they wrote extensively on the American Civil War, and their account is significant because it is virtually identical to the interpretation of Civil War history that many South-haters use today.
It’s an interesting question where South-haters get their interpretation. Maybe they stumble upon it all by themselves. More likely they absorb Marx and Engels as it filters through other historians. It’s not like the American Historical Association has had a shortage of marxists. Eric Foner being a classic example of one who writes on the Civil War.
The United States would have been far better served by holding every surviving Confederate officer accountable in the federal courts or military tribunals in the states of the rebellion, with punishment imposed according to the standards of the time.
The mistake of Reconstruction was in giving “The Lost Cause” any seeds or fertile soil in which to sprout. We'd be a far different and better nation now if the traitors had been dealt with properly.
Up yours troll, start crap somewhere else jerk.
Not to mention, one of its (three) posts claims Obama was born in Hawaii.
Could this be FR’s favorite retread? Anti-birther and hates the Confederacy... Made 3 comments so far only.
We would be a far better nation if the Confederacy had kicked the ever loving sh*t out of the union. How’s this hopey changey thing working for you?
Retread? The zotted Non-Sequitur aka zotted Drennan Whyte aka zotted Kstater aka zotted SOJOCO????
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