Challenge: A Scriptural Portrait of Mary

The Bible | 1/1/7 | pjr12345

[pjr12345]

Below are all the biblical references to Mary, the mother of Jesus that I could locate. Anything beyond Scriptural references is conjecture, the philosophies of men and not God.

Would anyone care to construct a Scripturally accurate portrait of Mary, leaving behind extra-biblical sources?

Please include your Scriptural references in support of your description.

Isaiah 7:13-14

Matthew 1:13-25; 2:11, 14, 20-21; 12: 46-50; 13:54-56

Mark 3:31-35; 6:3

Luke 1:26-56; 2:1-7, 16-19, 27, 33-35, 39, 41-51; 8:19-21

John 2:1-12; 6:41-42; 19:25-26

Acts 1:14

[Campion]

Does Paul teach that there is more than one intercessor? In the same way, he is saying there is only one God, not one of many, there is only one intercessor. Therefore Mary is a false intercessor, and prayer to her is heresy, and putting faith in a false saviour!

As usual, Ottofire, you're good for a chuckle.

Does Paul teach that there is more than one intercessor?

You know quite well that Paul asks others to intercede for him. What he doesn't do, and what we don't do either is ask anyone to intercede for him (or us) with the Father apart from the unique mediation of Jesus Christ ... including Mary.

Mary intercedes for us with her Son. Her Son mediates for the whole Church, including Mary, with the Father. Period. Full stop.

"False saviour". Come on, you know better than to spout such silliness.

[pjr12345]

Well?

Is anyone going to offer an exclusively Scriptural portrait of Mary?

[pjr12345]

Dead men tell no tales... nor do they intercede.

[Campion]

Dead men tell no tales... nor do they intercede.

There are no "dead men" (or women) in heaven. Again, Jesus said so. Mark 12:26-27.

Also see Rev 5:8, 6:9-11. Looks an awful lot like intercession; looks nothing like dead people.

[Uncle Chip]

I realize it is awkward, but it is the accurate way of saying it to children in families like that. But then again if you get in the habit of saying "your father and I" to the other six children in the family, then the words just come out almost without thinking.

[Campion]

Is anyone going to offer an exclusively Scriptural portrait of Mary?

No, I don't think anyone is willing to waste time on your stupid game, when you dismiss legitimate comments as "utter conjecture".

Nor am I. Good night.

[pjr12345]

If you want to pray to dead people, or otherwise violate the first two commandments, that is your business.

[Campion]

I realize it is awkward, but it is the accurate way of saying it to children in families like that.

Mothers who have been looking for their children for days are probably not going to meet your ruthless standards of accuracy.

[narses]

"Dead men tell no tales..."

Nope, but those ALIVE in Christ certainly can and do intercede for us. They are the Church Triumphant and we of the Church Militant KNOW that they live and they hear our pleas for intercessory prayers.

[Campion]

If you want to pray to dead people, or otherwise violate the first two commandments, that is your business.

Then why are you making it yours?

But I'm sorry you have a truncated version of Christianity that you believe can't give you everlasting life but can only leave you "dead". You don't need Jesus to be dead. Atheism can do that.

[brwnsuga]

That's cool that you do that in your church. Thank G-d for his Grace and mercy, huh.

[narses]

What religion do you espouse and what authority, if any, do you recognize as that of the Church?

[Uncle Chip]

Mothers who have been looking for their children for days are probably not going to meet your ruthless standards of accuracy.

Immaculate Mothers would never make that mistake, but imperfect mothers like Mary would and did make that mistake. All have sinned and fallen short --- Mary included --- as Luke 2:48 demonstrates.

[Cvengr]

Thanks for the listing. I hadn't considered Luke 1 and 2:35 this closely before. Luke 2:35 is an interesting passage. Does that mean her soul is pierced with a sword whenever somebody prays to her?

[Cvengr]

Luke 2:48-49 implies Mary was not without sin. She resorted to worldly thinking when she was looking for her child, but failed to think through faith in Him, or the Father, or the Holy SPirit. Since she thought independently of God, in a system of good works and morality independent of God, it appears she committed a worldly sin documented in Scripture.

It is interesting that the Son, rather than judge her, calls the situation to her attention, thereby allowing her to return to God through faith in the Lord on her own volition.

Great example by our Lord.

[wagglebee]

Is anyone going to offer an exclusively Scriptural portrait of Mary?

Can you provide scriptural authority for sola scriptura?

Can you provide Church authority for any Protestant translation of the Bible that excludes the Apocrypha?

And on your subject, was Eve created free from sin?

[narses]

"All have sinned and fallen short --- Mary included --- as Luke 2:48 demonstrates."

Hmmmm, who to believe? An anonymouse heretic on the internet or the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ? Not even tough.

My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid;
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

+ If you want on (or off) this Catholic and Pro-Life ping list, let me know!

[Kolokotronis]

"Hey Kolokotronis! You just KNEW I had to chime in, didn't you? :o)"

Well of course you have to chime in, OT! Without you, and HD and WF and FK, the only Protestats here would be a bunch of sour pusses! :)

"BTW, why does the website that you referred me to (http://www.goarch.org/) speak of "The bishops traditionally represented are James, the brother of the Lord..."

There is a small "t" tradition that +James was an older step brother of Christ; a child by a former marriage of +Joseph. It is a commonly held belief in Orthodoxy, though not a matter of dogma. I suspect that's where that comes from.

"I'll bet the RCC agrees with me that the OC does this sort of thing just to give us all a collective headache."

Nah, the headache is just one of the wages of sin, OF!

"Does Jesus Himself teach us to pray to others? Or does He teach us to pray to the Father without a necessary human intercession?"

The passage you quote refers specifically to the Divine Economy of our Salvation and the role of Christ in it. We do not advance in theosis because of saints or the Most Holy Theotokos. We asvance in theosis, if at all, because of grace. We Orthodox do believe that the saints and the Most Holy Theotokos will intercede with God for us, just as most Protestants believe that individually or in a group their prayers to God are efficacious for the object of those prayers, say, a sick parishioner, the president of the US, who or whatever.

"In the same way, he is saying there is only one God, not one of many, there is only one intercessor."

Our theosis, if we arrive at that state, is only on account of the Incarnation. It is Christ Who made that possible, not saints, not the Most Holy Theotokos. Neither she nor they are our redeemers. To say otherwise, to loosely use the unfortunate tern "Co-Redemptrix" when referring to the Most Holy Theotokos, very likely is indeed heresy.

"We will always argue about the saviour bit, but without her intercession is our salvation effectual?"

I can't imagine why it wouldn't be. The Panagia doesn't hold the keys to heaven, OF. Orthodoxy has never taught such a thing.

"If not, then why is it NOT part of the written Gospel, the Good News, handed down to such as Luke, (see Luke 1).

Why would John, her adopted son, not write about it in his Gospel or Epistles if it is so central to small c catholic and small o orthodox faith? It is simply not documented in the Scripture."

I'm not sure what you mean by these comments, OF. Try again and I'll try to respond.

[GCC Catholic]

pjr, I think this had the potential to be a good discussion. Unfortunately, discussions require all parties involved to LISTEN. Criticizing a point is ok, provided that you give a reason for your criticism, because it gives a person a chance to give further reasoning for his statement. You're not doing that here; you've made up your mind that if the literal text doesn't say exactly what you were looking for (i.e. the "Scriptural" portrait of Mary) it is to be rejected outright, without giving any further chance to support it.

Utter conjecture

Your not agreeing with a conclusion that the verses I mentioned suggest does not make it conjecture, and it doesn't make it non-Scriptural.

A note on creating threads. First, please mark threads you have written instead of posting from elsewhere as "Vanity" threads (most people forget the first time or two that they create a thread).

If you're not going to allow typographical references, then I think your grouping between Matthew and Acts is about it. I wish that I could give you something else to work with, but apparently I can't, and I have other responsibilities to attend to here at home.

If you would like to read a Catholic perspective on Mary as viewed from Scripture, I suggest Scott Hahn's book Hail, Holy Queen; Mary was one of the obstacles that he initially encountered on his journey into the Catholic Church.

Have a good night and God Bless.

[wagglebee]

Hmmmm, who to believe? An anonymouse heretic on the internet or the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ? Not even tough.

My question has always been, why did Reformers such as Luther, Calvin and Wesley continue to promote Marian beliefs AFTER they left the Church?

The Protestants love to say that these men were "wrong," but how do they know that this was their error and not silly heretical views like sola scriptura?