Posted on 07/09/2004 4:44:38 AM PDT by abu afak
Catholic Church equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism
Haaretz Correspondent
The Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism by means of a joint statement issued by a forum of Catholic-Jewish intellectuals this week.
The announcement was made at a gathering of religious, academic and other leading Jewish and Catholic figures in Buenos Aires.
"We oppose anti-Semitism in any way and form, including anti-Zionism that has become of late a manifestation of anti-Semitism," the statement said.
This is the first time that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism have been equated by the Catholic Church.
The statement also includes a stern condemnation of terrorism, particularly terror in the name of faith.
"Terror is a sin against man and against God. Fundamentalist terrorism in the name of God has no justification and cannot be justified."
Ilan Steinberg, director of the World Jewish Congress, one of the forum's organizers, described the joint statement as "an historic moment."
"For the first time, the Catholic Church recognizes in anti-Zionism an attack not only against Jews, but against the whole Jewish people."
Senior Jewish figures called the announcement a significant, public statement of support by the Catholic Church in the face of anti-Zionism.
"In the past, Zionism was equated with racism, and this statement turns anti-Zionism statements to a form of racism," a Jewish leader said in New York.
The statement joins a prior European Union announcement and UN declaration of war against anti-Semitism as part of a global front fighting the scourge.
I guess. Why pay taxes when there's other dupes out there willing to pay them for you? It's the "American" way, in some circles. They've got a lot in common with Al Sharpton.
I am a proud member of Alouette's ping list. In the posts of Alouette and SJackson, I have seen nothing to indicate that they are irresponsible radicals. Also, I have yet to see anything in Harrowup's accusations that would prove that point. Alouette and SJackson simply appear to be unequivocally pro-Israel, as am I.
Now, as to Harrowup's Jewishness, I am aware of the Jewish tradition that in the case of mixed marriages, the mother's religion is generally the one in which the child is raised. However, I believe that Harrowup actually converted to Judaism. I just asked my wife, who is a Jew, if that makes Harrowup a Jew in the eyes of God. She says it does.
Sleeping, huh? Thank you.
Never said he converted. Just said he chose but married an RC woman. Converting has requirements and I doubt he could manage to convince a Rabbi of his "Jewishness." Bris? Bar Mitzvah? His children couldn't be Jewish. I remain unconvinced.
I don't. His pattern fits a classical MO of some antisemite activists, and there is nothing in his rambling explanation of his "Jewishness" to suggest that he actually converted. He talks about "going on as a Jew", which is patently ridiculous since he wasn't one in the first place. Elsewhere he has made it clear that he doesn't actually know the difference between a bar mitzvah and a bat mitzvah. Now, that's a level of ignorance not permitted if you're trying to convert.
Actually, I have seen speculation that he's institutionalized somewhere in the Chicago area. The data presented seemed reasonable to me.
As to harrowups Jewishness, I don't much care, though if the posts attributed to him are accurate, with a Jewish father, if he professes to be a believing Jew, Reform and Reconstructionist (I think) Judiasm would consider him a Jew.
Not raising his children in our faith might be problematical, as it brings his sincerity into question, but Reform Judiasm would likely take a "let live" attitude towards that, so if he says he's a Jew, then he's a Jew. Besides, who cares, if he shows up at Synagogue, no one's going to interview him. And I doubt he's planning to make Aliyah anytime soon, and a Jewish dad would be enough for that anyway, you don't have to be Jewish.
As to his accusations, if there was anything, he would have posted it here, it's not like I haven't asked, multiple times, as has Alouette. IMO, it's significant that he chose to raise these at another forum friendlier to Holocaust deniers and their ilk. A poster alerted me to them. At times these nutcases are entertaining.
Harrowup, anytime you care to show EveningStar and everyone else that there's a there, there, feel free.
That other forum is friendly to people who are anti-FR or who want to blast certain individuals at FR. Harrowup himself does not appear to be a Holocaust denier and, in fact, has actually blasted Holocaust deniers.
Like you, however, I still await his proof that you and Alouette are the thugs he says you are.
Created by would be more accurate would be more accurate than friendly. They're like an auto accessory maker in that sence.
Harrowup himself does not appear to be a Holocaust denier and, in fact, has actually blasted Holocaust deniers.
I agree, I wasn't implying he was. I was commenting on the fact that the thread he started all this on, his opinions immediatly reeled one in.
I see what you're saying now. Yeah, he did reel in a "winner" there. It's amazing that such people still exist.
Thanks for your Expose' of harrowup SJackson.
It is as I suspected..
Anyone who supports Israel (and 'Worse') Israel defending itself, is a "Radical Zionist" accurding to narrowcup.
I have found from many boards, including Israel Forum, (where we periodically see this) that "½ Jews" are particularly susceptible to this self-contempt and Israel hate.
Without getting into the Detailed Psychology of it all, a lifetime of inner conflict sometimes spills out onto the Proxy for 'Jewish'.. Israel.
(as it does with classic anti-semites who use Israel as a PC Proxy for 'Jew'...
ie see Brian Mulroney's "Israel is the New Jew")
Vatican leaders condemn anti-Zionism
By Florencia Arbiser
BUENOS AIRES, July 8 (JTA) -- In an unprecedented step, Catholic religious leaders have signed on to a statement rejecting anti-Zionism as a form of anti-Semitism.
A statement expressing ``total rejection of anti Semitism in all its forms, including anti-Zionism as a more recent manifestation of anti Semitism," was released Thursday at the end of the 18th International Liaison Committee meeting between Jewish and Catholic intellectuals and religious leaders in Buenos Aires.
The Catholic and Jewish leaders also committed to work together for justice and charity.
``We came to Latin America and brought about a profound change," Elan Steinberg, executive vice president of the World Jewish Congress, told JTA. ``The government and the Catholic church, the two most relevant institutions of the region, are supporting us."
Leaders of the WJC, which helped organize the forum, also met with Argentine President Nestor Kirchner. Kirchner agreed to press other Latin American presidents to sign a petition against anti-Semitism, they said.
The Jewish leaders were gratified that the concluding document also condemned terrorism, calling it ``a sin against man and God."
The delegates also proposed holding a shared celebration next year for the 40th anniversary of Nostra Aetate, a landmark Vatican document declaring that Jews historically are not liable for Jesus' death and establishing a joint annual memorial for Holocaust victims.
The forum was the first international meeting of Vatican officials and Jews in Latin America, a region of 550 million people that includes 475 million Catholics and 525,000 Jews.
The theme of the meeting was tzedek and tzedaka, or justice and charity, because of the work done by the Jewish community and the Catholic Church to help the poor after Argentina's economic collapse in December 2001.
No venue was set for the next meeting, but the religious leaders discussed holding it in Israel.
``It will bring new friends to Israel. We need alliances," said Rabbi Israel Singer, the WJC's chairman.
Shear Yashuv Cohen, chief rabbi of Haifa, told JTA that the meeting was important because it represented a gathering of religious believers, not politicians or human rights organizations.
Judith Hertz of the Union for Reform Judaism -- the only woman in the Jewish delegation -- said it was ``impressive" that Catholic religious leaders would travel so far and spend so much time to understand Jews' concerns.
``Catholics talk about loving God. We, Jews, talk about repairing the world," she said. ``Our central value systems are the same: We need to do something for the children with hunger or the elderly that are alone.'' JTA END
Good idea, though I suspect we haven't heard the last of this. The important thing to the disruptor's is taking the focus off what they perceive as the offensive content of the article. In this thread, they've been partially successful.
Ding dang it; you folks are really stretched over the weekend when you can't steal time from your employer to roam at will through the dangerous world of cyber warfare.
Does anyone have the results of the latest poll in Israel which might shed some light on your dilemma?
The unfortunate truth is that you punks have probably driven off some very considerate supporters of Israel who consider the subject one of justice as distinguished from zealotry.
Here is a short quiz and you are on your honor to reply honestly:
1. Have any of you and any other member of your gang ever written favorably supporting the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin?
2. Have any of you ever written anywhere on the internet or in any letters to the editor any condemnation of the JDL and/or other Kahane Killers?
Now, when you have completed your assignment and cut back on your personal attacks and stalking I will be pleased to share with you the diagnoses associated with your rabbid condition.
The assasination of Rabin was a great tragedy, and probably engineered by the left. I suspect that Peres et al saw a risk of Rabin bolting their little conspiracy after the Oslo deal began to take its toll. Heck, you're on the left. You know how you do these things ;).
Now, why do I say that it was a tragedy? Because, apart from the chance that he might grass on his companions, he should have stood trial:
EXPLODING THE MYTH ABOUT RABIN...
BY Ben Shapiro
November 5, 2003
Eight years ago this week, the fate of Israel was sealed. On Nov. 4, 1995, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir. The murder was tragic, not just because Rabin suffered an untimely death but because Rabin became sacrosanct. The illusory image of Rabin as the tough sabra willing to negotiate with the Arabs, as the invincible general turned peacemaker, as the tolerant, wise leader of the Jewish state, was forever enshrined in the public consciousness. Rabin's political inheritance, the Oslo Accords, became unassailable.
On the anniversary of his death, it is now more necessary than ever to explode the myth of Yitzhak Rabin. As long as Rabin's myth exists, it will be impossible to move beyond his failed policies: negotiation with terror, persecution of the Israeli right wing, apologies for Jewish existence. Rabin was no "great general." As Uri Milstein's "The Rabin File" explains, Yitzhak Rabin bears responsibility for many of the most fouled-up military operations in Israeli history. On Dec. 9, 1947, during the War of Independence, Rabin took charge of the Jerusalem sector of the Palmach (the elite striking force of the Haganah, precursor to the Israeli Defense Force). Rabin's task was to secure Jerusalem and access to the city. Under his watch, Israeli forces met with disaster after disaster. The substantial losses incurred by Rabin's soldiers led the United States to withdraw support for the establishment of the Jewish state on March 19. Rabin's military record extends beyond incompetence. The celebrated soldier actually fled the field of battle in 1948. On April 20, a food and supply convoy set out for Jerusalem. The area fell under Rabin's jurisdiction. His forces failed to secure the road, and the convoy was ambushed. When the ambush occurred, several officers attempted to lead counterattacks; Rabin did not. Instead, he personally drove away for reinforcements. After requesting reinforcements, Rabin did not return to fight with his men -- he went to sleep.
One of Rabin's proudest military moments came on June 22, 1948. Menachem Begin's Irgun, another Israeli military group, was in the midst of negotiating a pact with David Ben-Gurion under which Irgun would join the new Israeli Defense Force. Meanwhile, the Irgun had loaded a ship, the Altalena, with weapons and Jewish fighters (many of them Holocaust survivors) to join the IDF. Ben-Gurion ordered that the Altalena be fired upon. Rabin carried out his orders to the letter. Later, Rabin bragged how he had "bumped them off on the deck of the burning ship and while they were trying to swim to safety." Sixteen Jews were killed, many shot while swimming to shore.
So much for the "great general." More importantly, however, Rabin's true political legacy -- the diabolical "peace process" -- must be exposed. Before his election in 1992, Rabin promised the Israeli public that he would never negotiate with arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat or his murderous Palestine Liberation Organization. Yet before the Israeli elections, in May 1992, eight Labor Party members, led by master-appeaser Yossi Beilin, met with Abu Mazen (then the head of the PLO "political wing") in Cairo. This was against Israeli law. According to Yehoshua HaMe'iri, a journalist then stationed in Cairo, "what was discussed was an attempt to ensure a Labor Party victory in the elections." A quid pro quo was made: Labor would work on behalf of "Palestinians" if the PLO influenced Israeli Arabs to vote Labor.
After the election, the Rabin government immediately cracked down on Israelis opposing the Oslo Accords. Moshe Feiglin, now the head of the Manhigut Yehudit block within Likud, organized peaceful mass protests. Rabin retaliated by putting Feiglin on trial for "raising fear among the public." At future protests, the Israeli police were used as a political organization, blocking protesters and sometimes assaulting them. It is vital to remember that before Rabin's murder, his peace program had been overwhelmingly rejected by the Israeli public. By April 1994, Rabin's approval rating had dropped to 41 percent. Before his assassination, Rabin was trailing anti-Oslo Likud candidate Benjamin Netanyahu by a wide margin. Only after his murder did the public glorify Rabin.
After Rabin's death, the witch hunt shifted into high gear. The Israeli right wing found itself in a position akin to that of the American right wing after the Oklahoma City bombing. Eight years later, the madness has not ceased. The government has shut down the radio station Arutz Sheva, a right-wing news service; actions are underway to shut down Arutz Sheva's Internet site as well.
Yitzhak Rabin did not deserve to be murdered. He simply deserved to lose the public trust. He deserved to live out his life in obscurity rather than dying a martyr for a detestable cause.
Machinegunning Jews off the deck of a burning ship. Sounds like your kind of "Jew", p*ssant.
Based on what has been reported in this article, the Catholic Church hasn't stated anything.
No.
But it would be utterly irrational for the Catholic Church to issue a statement equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
That would be sort of like saying that anyone who opposes the Irish Republican Army is anti-Irish.
Too true. I have too much of a temper and am too much inclined to tear filth like Harrow limb from limb. But let's just remember that Martin Luther King - one of the figures that Nathan the Jewbaiter would profess to have the greatest respect for, brought the same message many years ago ;).
I am under no obligation whatsoever to refute the vicious accusations that you have made against me here and in other forums. Here in this country a person is presumed INNOCENT until proven GUILTY beyond a reasonable doubt.
Therefore the burden of proof is upon you to provide genuine evidence and documentation that I am now or have ever been a member or a supporter of the Jewish Defense League and that I have ever said or written anything approving the assassination of Mr. Rabin.
You made the accusation. You provide the proofs beyond a reasonable doubt.
I also have the right to ignore your nonsense.
I recommend that you CEASE AND DESIST with your slanders and libels until you can provide some proof of the utter nonsense you've been spewing here and on other forums.
When were you Bar Mitzvahed?
……….
To: SJackson; DonaldDuke; Nix 2; abu afak; dennisw
Welcome to the Our Gang Kahane Komedy Klub.
Ding dang it; you folks are really stretched over the weekend when you can't steal time from your employer to roam at will through the dangerous world of cyber warfare.
Does anyone have the results of the latest poll in Israel which might shed some light on your dilemma?
The unfortunate truth is that you punks have probably driven off some very considerate supporters of Israel who consider the subject one of justice as distinguished from zealotry.
Here is a short quiz and you are on your honor to reply honestly:
1. Have any of you and any other member of your gang ever written favorably supporting the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin?
2. Have any of you ever written anywhere on the internet or in any letters to the editor any condemnation of the JDL and/or other Kahane Killers?
Now, when you have completed your assignment and cut back on your personal attacks and stalking I will be pleased to share with you the diagnoses associated with your rabbid condition.
113 posted on 07/11/2004 5:06:53 PM CDT by harrowup
…………………………..
No and no, as to letters to the editor. I might have posted negative things about Kach on the internet, no links at my fingertips. As to #1, no, I've never advocated murder on the internet. You're words are those of a very deranged individual. You're a cowardly, knuckledragging, leftist propagandist, harrowup.
The fact of the matter is I don’t know you from my neighbors goats (you don't know my neighbors goats, do you?), but suddenly you turned up in the last week with multiple accusations against me, FR, and other posters. Stalkers, you bet, check out the mirror, hope you see an image.
Anyway, my turn.
I’ve seen posts on the internet alleging that you claim to have an MBA. Are they true?
I’ve seen posts on the internet alleging that you claim to have an MD. Are they true?
I’ve seen posts on the internet alleging that you claim to have a JD. Are they true?
If yes, impressive, but I await your answers. I don’t trust what I read on the internet, harrowup is the best source on harrowup.
I’ve seen posts on the internet alleging that you claim to be an Annapolis grad. Are they true?
I’ve seen posts on the internet alleging that you claim to have retired at flag rank, after 30 years. Are they true?
I’ve seen posts on the internet alleging that you claim to be a former Communist. Are they true?
If the last 2 are accurate, can you explain the circumstances of your service in the USN as a professed communist. If the answers are no, forget it, can’t trust posts on the internet.
Then it’s on to your allegations which you’re too cowardly to support.
You’ve accused me, and other Freepers, on FR and at least one other forum of being an agent of the JDL. Are you ready to post proof?
You’ve accused me, and other Freepers, on FR and at least one other forum of being an agent of the ADL. Are you ready to post proof?
You’ve accused me, and a large number of other freepers of being supporters of Kach and Kahane Chai, terrorist groups, possible a crime. Do you have any proof?
Your characterization of supporters of Israel on FR, hundreds, as Klansmen, the proof, harrowup
I await your answers, Dr. Admiral, Esq., or is it Rabbi?
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