Posted on 01/01/2004 1:14:11 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
Come, Let Us Reason Together 2004: The Mother of all Theological Discussions.
The Central Question is this:
It MUST BE SCRIPTURALLY PROVEN that while the Fallen Man is yet Spiritually Dead, he will nonetheless perform Spiritually Alive Actions of Will while he is still yet Spiritually Dead.
On this, the whole of the Reformation turns.
To a man, the Reformers insisted that the Reformation was not about abuses, whether of immorality on the part of the clergy or of tyranny on the part of popes. Such was the Reformers' regard for the unity of the church that they freely acknowledged that the Reformation could not be justified on the basis of correcting abuses and improving morals. The Reformation, they maintained, was about the gospel, particularly the doctrine of justification-heart of the gospel.
The entire history of Protestantism in general since the Reformation, as of every Protestant church in particular, has been vain, an exercise in futility. All the development of distinctive Protestant theology, all the work, all the struggle, all the sacrifice, all the suffering, all the martyrdom has been for nothing. Write "VANITY!" by all means in capital letters, at the beginning and the end of the church-history book of Protestantism.
It is now the solemn duty of all evangelical churches to confess to God and the pope the sin of their separation from Rome and to seek admission into the Roman Catholic Church. They must do so at once. The sin of schism is grievous. It is damning. Evangelicals must not continue in it for a moment. Let all evangelical churches in all the world hold a special synod, or general assembly, or conference as soon as possible. Let them authorize a delegation of leaders, including Billy Graham, Charles Colson, and James I. Packer, to present their confession and supplication to the Vicar of Christ in Rome.
And then, we all troop back. Back to a gospel of Christ and Mary, of grace and free will, of faith and works. Back to uncertainty about final salvation. Back to certainty of hellish agonies at death in purgatory. Back to participation in the sacrificing of Jesus Christ again every day. Back to the worship of a piece of bread. Back to the confessional and its satisfactions. Back to the authority of church and tradition above that of Holy Scripture. Back to an ungracious god of salvation by works of the law.
With our little ones.
And God is in His Heaven, and reigns absolutely over all the affairs of Men and Nations, down to the smallest Atom.
And the Calvinist Reformation of the Church was the Greatest Move of the Holy Spirit since the Days of Pentecost.
Happy Ney Year!!
OP
I see two acts of obedience to God on the part of man prior to salvation in this passage.
"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" Acts 2:38
Hey, I see two acts of obedience to God on the part of man prior to forgiveness of since in this passage, too.
This is kinda easy. Here's another one with two!
"With the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation" (Rom 10:10)
This is fun. So far we have belief, repentance, confession, baptism occuring prior to salvation (or forgiveness of sins).
Can you think of any more?
Why should I?
You have only identified actions which are performed by the spiritually-alive. The Spiritually-Alive do indeed Believe, Repent, Confess, and obey the Law of Baptism --AFTER the Holy Spirit has already raised them to spiritual life (II Corinthians 2:14). The Spiritually Dead do NOT these things (Romans 8:5-8).
Which means you have just proven the Calvinist Case (which is to say, the Biblical Truth of Absolute Predestination).
You were saying?
best, OP
All I want to be is a Christian. All I want as my creed is the Bible. The only church I want to be a member of is the one Jesus built. All else is folly.
If one reads only the Bible and does what it says, what does that one become? Not an Augustinian or a Catholic or a Baptist or a [name any denomination]. One becomes a Christian, a member of Christ's assembly/church/body.
You should read and heed Paul's exhortation to the Corinthian church on party-ism in 1Cor 1:10-13 and seek out New Testament, non-denominational, simple Christianity.
All of the passages I offered say that the actions taken are done so PRIOR to (a) salvation or (b) forgiveness.
Now, if you are herein advocating that those who are spiritually alive can be counted among the (a) unsaved or (b) unforgiven at any point, then we do have a controversy on our hands.
Look again:
believe + baptized ==> saved (saved after B+B)
repent + baptized ==> forgiveness (forgiven after R+B)
confession ==> salvation (saved after confession)
It's just plain, simple grammer, man!
Please expound upon your claim that these actions are taken by the spiritually alive.
Also, please explain how Paul can say, in Rom 6:3 and Gal 3:27, that we are baptized into Christ. Before I'm moved into something I'm outside of it, right? And you wouldn't go as far as to say those outside of Christ are spiritually alive, would you?
Peter says in 1Pet 3:21 that baptism (a) is an appeal by man to God and (b) results in salvation through the resurrection of Christ. Similar to other passages provided in other responses, the grammar is simple:
APPEAL TO GOD ==> SAVED (saved after the appeal)
Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." But you have Jesus beating down the door and forcing entry.
God doesn't want pets or robots. He wants the same thing out of His family you want out of yours: trust, love and respect. Can't force those.
God offers a gift - salvation by the blood of Jesus Christ - and asks us to accept it (i.e. knocks on the door).
You have it wrong because you're (a) reading more into your proof texts than what's written and (b) ignoring the scriptures with which your "theology" disagrees.
You mistake me, Friend.
You think I have not been there? I have been there, done that.
I already have sought out the "simple, non-denominational" Church of American Pseudo-Christianity -- indeed, I was raised in such "churches"... and they have sickened me.
I was there when my non-denominational, "Protestant" church destroyed the good reputation of my beloved Calvinist Youth Pastor, viciously accusing him of effeminacy and pederasty (he was no pedophile, I knew him well; he was just a 1960's vegetarian hippie who had converted to Christianity and adopted Calvinism), wounding his Mind and Soul so badly that he was eventually driven to seek solace in the holistic comfort of Eastern Orthodoxy.
And what punishment was brought against the Brutal Gossips who had so viciously destroyed my beloved Calvinist Youth Pastor? NONE! What "punishment" could be brought against them? They controlled the Congregation... and being "non-denominational", the Congregation was a Law unto itself!!
Bollocks on that.
I am sick of such self-serving LIES. "Non-Denominational" to me is just orwellian doublespeak for a Pastor and Congregation who are determined to be a Law unto Themselves, with no accountability whatsoever to any higher Biblical and Apostolic Authority.
Faugh upon that. That is NOT the Biblical Model.
And the Biblical Model is that Churches Ruled by a Council of Presbyters are subject to an ECUMENICAL COUNCIL. Check out Acts 15 HERE. Paul presented evidence, Barnabas presented evidence, Peter presented evidence; and James, the "Bishop of Bishops" pronounced the Ruling; but all was done in accordance with Unanimous Conciliar Judgment, which is the Right and Biblical and Presbyterian and Orthodox Model.
THIS is what Scripture has mandated. THIS is the Teaching of Scripture.
THIS is the Normative Organization of the New Testament Church.
The UNANIMOUS CONCILIAR JUDGMENT of Equal Bishops, according to the Orthodox and Presbyterian Model; albeit that Apostle James, as Administrative President, pronounced the Ruling.
Not a bunch of "non-denominational" Congregations out to "do your own thang".
Apostle Saint Paul did NOT write Fleetwood Mac Lyrics:
Apostle Saint Paul wrote Epistles. Which is another word for Instructions.
Sometimes, I don't know which is worse...
Personally, I am delighted and happy to have found the Biblical Golden Mean -- the Testamental Ecclesial Presbyterian Model of the One True Church; the 6,000-year-old Covenantal Continuity the One True Church; and Fundamental Theological Predestinarianism of the One True Church.
Hallelujah!
best, OP
No, you are ASSERTING that the actions taken are done so prior to Monergistic Sovereign Regeneration. But as you yourself say: You saying so don't make it so.
Lets examine the Biblical Laws of Human Depravity:
Thus, according to the LAWS OF SCRIPTURE, it is a crime against God for you to propose that the spiritually dead will ever commit spiritually-alive Actions of Will.
Thus, only CALVINISM can possibly be True. God REGENERATES a Man first, and then that spiritually-alive Man does Repent.
Anything else is falsehood.
Not to put too fine a point on it... anything else is Allegiance with Rome, and War against God.
Best, OP
pony
And the Biblical Model is that Churches Ruled by a Council of Presbyters are subject to an ECUMENICAL COUNCIL. Check out Acts 15 HERE."
Regarding your first point, although I'd word it a little differently, I think we read the scriptures about the same when it comes to the organization of local churches. The terms elders/bishops/pastors are used interchangeably of the same "office" in the N.T. Elders are to shepherd (pastor) the local congregation (eg - church in Corinth). Paul appointed elders in the churches, and Peter says, "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock."
I don't agree that Acts 15 is an example of a ecumenmical council. Paul had been preaching the same thing the church in Jerusalem ultimately wrote in their letter. But the letter wasn't a ruling deriving its authority from the Jerusalem council. It referred the reader back to the Holy Spirit for authority.
The letter provided proof to Paul's gentile converts that - despite the lies to the contrary from Paul's detractors, the judaizers - Paul's gospel and the gospel taught in Jerusalem by the other apostles was one and the same.
I don't see any authority for super-congregational earthly authorities such as the Romish hierarchy, conventions, councils, synods, etc.
We have the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets by revelation in the scriptures. If a council gives the same ruling, it's redundant. If a council gives a different ruling it's anathema. So, what's the point of having them? Throughout history they've done much more harm than good - binding where scripture does not, loosing where scripture binds.
Tantumergo has previously posted some excellent comments on "operative" Grace vis-a-vis "co-operative" Grace. I intend, as best as I am able, to tie his comments into this discussion.
Best, OP
Please answer these specific questions so I can better understand your position:
In the scripture, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38), which comes first? Repentance or forgiveness?
In the scripture, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved" (Mk 16:16), which comes first? Belief or salvation?
In the scripture, "With the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation" (Rom 10:10), which comes first? Confession or salvation?
What does "baptized into Christ" mean in Rom 6:3 and Gal 3:27? Is one is outside or inside Christ before they are baptized?
If you answer salvation/forgiveness to any of the first 3, then either you or I don't understand the meaning of the words "shall be", "for" and "resulting in". And I eagerly await your exposition of "baptized into Christ".
The Philippian Jailer while YET an unsaved man asked the holy and proper question, "What must I do to be saved?"
The proof that he was spiritually dead is that he is told that by believing he WILL BE saved. He was, therefore, an unsaved man.
And since regeneration and salvation occur simultaneously (but as many as received Him, to those who believed on his name...to them gave he power to BECOME sons of God...) then this is a spiritually dead man asking a spiritually alive question.
It is possible, of course, ONLY because of the CONVICTING grace of God (prevenient grace) that enlightens a man prior to salvation and regeneration so that a holy choice can be perceived.
Then you are frankly wrong, hellary.
You've got Apostle Paul, Saint Barnabas, Apostle Peter, and all the Great Elders, and the "Bishop of Bishops" Apostle James, all coming together in the same place, at the same time, in the central locus of Early Christianity (that is, Jerusalem -- not Rome) to pronounce together the same Judgment, according to the Ruling of Apostle James.
If that's not an "Ecumenical Council", then what the heck is it?
An ice-cream shop?
And if any "church" were to reject the Ruling of Apostle James, as confirmed by Unanimous Apostolic Assent, then what are they?
Would heretics be too strong a word?
An Ecumenical Council gathered in Jerusalem. According to the Apostles. And they spoke in Unison with the Scriptures. And they gave Judgment to the Churches, according the the Ruling of James. And they also established a Form of Conciliar Unity, in keeping with the Old Covenant:
As far as the point which I have bolded, I agree with you: We have the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets by revelation in the scriptures. If a council gives the same ruling, it's redundant.
Where I can't seem to "jive" with you, "my homey", is that you seem to think that redundancy is a Bad Thang.
Since when? Since when is Redundancy a Bad Thing?
I think that some Redundancy is a VERY GOOD Thing.
I think that it is VERY GOOD that the Presbyterian Churches have modelled themselves after the Righteous Synagogues of Old. I think that it is VERY GOOD that we read the Ten Words of the Law every so often in our Churches. And I hope and pray that we are ever-so "redundant" that we should try to remember always the Prayer which Our Lord taught us.
What's wrong with a little Redundancy? It is certainly found in the Heavenly Liturgy of John's Apocalypse, upon which the Eastern Orthodox worship service is based.
THE KEY THING IS THIS -- The "Athanasian Creed" (the bed-rock of all Trinitarianism) is indeed redundant with Scripture -- but that's the whole point. The Athanasian Creed brings together every important Scriptural Reference on the subject of the Divinity of the Father, the Divinity of the Son, the Divinity of the Spirit, and the Unity and Diversity of the Trinity in One Creed. Like all Great Creeds, it's basically one long chain-reference of Scripture -- you either believe it or not, but it is Scripture.
That's why I call myself a "Magisterial Protestant" -- I agree with the Eastern Orthodox that the Christian Magisterium is an invaluable and precious record of the Great Teachings of the Great Fathers throughout the ages, although (as a Protestant) I believe that the Scriptures judge the Magisterium, not the other way around.
Cutting yourself off from the beautiful and thoughtful redundancy of the Great Creeds is like cutting yourself off from your Pastor's Sermon, and the Bread of the Eucharist. You might as well stay at home and listen to Jimmy Swaggart (himself a famous Anti-Calvinist, in his heyday).
best, OP
I agree with your post and would add:
Obedience to the law = eternal life
Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
He tells the man that keeping the commandments will bring eternal life.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
He's telling people to repent of their iniquity (lawlessness) because the kingdom of heaven is at hand. If more were expected, I think he would have said it. Like repent from lawlessness and be baptised in my name or repent from lawlessness and call me G-d
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
He came to preach repentance to sinners. It doesn't say that he came to preach repentance to sinners and baptise the righteous in his name if they call him G-d.
Proverbs 12:28
In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
If there is no death, then there is Life.
Ezekiel 14
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
YHVH asks repentance from both Israel and the strangers that soujourn there.
Ezekiel 18
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
People have to take responsibility for their own actions and make themselves new hearts and new spirits.
Is there a difference between eternal life and salvation?
Nope.
You ASSERT but you have NO SCRIPTURE.
That will not cut it.
SCRIPTURE is ADAMANT:
You can't cut corners, Xzins.
You can't play "Horse-shoes are close enough."
DEAD = DEAD.
Either God enlivens a Man's Spirit monergistically, or else he stays Dead.
This is the Truth of the Bible.
DEAD = DEAD.
He asked the fearful and terrified Question.
Even the Demons Fear, and Tremble.
But God creates Faith in whomsoever He wills.
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