Posted on 11/14/2017 2:24:54 PM PST by nickcarraway
Robert Jeffress spent Wednesday with Donald Trump, supporting the president during his fundraising visit to the Belo Mansion in downtown Dallas. On Thursday, the First Baptist Dallas pastor and Trump's biggest evangelical supporter had to do something a lot less fun — take to the Fox News airwaves to defend himself from charges that he is anti-Catholic.
Word of Jeffress' potentially anti-Catholic views bubbled to the surface this week when a reporter asked White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders about her boss's continued praise for the Dallas demagogue, given Jeffress' controversial statements about the Catholic church. Sanders said that she wasn't "aware of Robert Jeffress being anti-Catholic" and that she knew that he worked with Texas Catholics on events like the anti-abortion rights demonstration March for Life.
On Fox News, Jeffress repeated Sanders' line, confirming that he works with Catholics against abortion, and said that the characterization of his thoughts about Catholicism was inaccurate.
"What they did was they went back and recycled old quotes from years ago that were either completely manufactured at the time or ripped out of context," Jeffress said.
The Observer believes that Jeffress deserves a fair hearing about whether he was taken out of context, so we've taken the liberty of transcribing, in their entirety, Jeffress' comments about Catholicism and the Roman Catholic Church from a 2010 segment on his radio show Pathway to Victory.
"This is the Babylonian mystery religion that spread like a cult throughout the entire world. The high priests of that fake religion, that false religion, the high priests of that religion would wear crowns that resemble the heads of fish, that was in order to worship the fish god Dagon, and on those crowns were written the words, ‘Keeper of the Bridge,’ the bridge between Satan and man.
"That phrase, Keeper of the Bridge — the Roman equivalent of it is Pontifex Maximus. It was a title that was first carried by the Caesars and then the emperors and finally by the Bishop of the Rome, Pontifex Maximus, the Keeper of the Bridge.
"You can see where we’re going with this. It is that Babylonian mystery religion that infected the early church. One of the churches it infected was the church of Pergamos, which is one of the recipients of the Book of Revelation. And the early church was corrupted by this Babylonian mystery religion, and today the Roman Catholic Church is the result of that corruption.
"Much of what you see in the Catholic Church today doesn’t come from God’s word; it comes from that cultlike, pagan religion. Now you say, ‘Pastor, how can you say such a thing? That is such an indictment of the Catholic Church. After all, the Catholic Church talks about God and the Bible and Jesus and the blood of Christ and salvation.’
"Isn’t that the genius of Satan? If you want to counterfeit a dollar bill, you don’t do it with purple paper and red ink. You’re not going to fool anybody with that. But if you want to counterfeit money, what you do is make it look closely related to the real thing as possible.
"And that’s what Satan does with counterfeit religion. He uses, he steals, he appropriates all of the symbols of true biblical Christianity, and he changes it just enough in order to cause people to miss eternal life."
Basically, Jeffress believes that Catholicism is a counterfeit of genuine Christianity, descended from a Babylonian fish-worshiping cult. Its resemblance to the real article shows Satan's genius, Jeffress says. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the faith practiced by 70 million Americans.
When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
Sorry I over looked your reply till now. But actually rather than rather weak and cloudy or ambiguous passages, there are one that are written to believers as believers which at face value clearly warn them as choosing to depart from the living God, fall from grace, make Christ of no effect, to profit them nothing, which defenders of OSAS try to make weak and cloudy or ambiguous, but which I honestly cannot do (though I would like to!).
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)
The subjects here are clearly born again believers, in whom "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father," (Galatians 4:6) and thus were exhorted to Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. Thus this is not some "mixed multitude" of unregenerate and born again souls as some try to make it to be.
They are being seduced by Judaizers who believe in salvation by law-keeping, versus effectual faith which is to result in progressively fulfilling the righteousness of the law, (Rm. 8:4) things fruits "which accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9)
The effect is not the cause, and to succumb to the gospel of the Judaizers (too much akin to Catholicism), signified by being circumcised, would be a denial of faith which is accounted for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) and thus forfeit what faith appropriated. Thus meaning Christ shall profit them nothing, becoming of "no effect", meaning they "fallen from grace." In contrast, "we [believers who are faithful and not fallen] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
This is clear, and only by postulating that Christ profiting them nothing, becoming of "no effect", and being "fallen from grace" means something less than heading to damnation can this be disallowed as contrary to OSAS.
Next up in Hebrews 3:
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)
This also is written to believers as believers in danger of apostasy, who are thus exhorted to keep faith in Christ: whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end," ."For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6,14)
Since we are saved by faith so we have many exhortations to "continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel." (Colossians 1:23)
But there is no more meriting of salvation here than in conversion, in which God draws, convicts, moves and motivates man to repentant faith which He grants/gifts him, though believing is something man does, and conversion is conscious, not as one comatose.
Likewise while believers are exhorted (as by choice) "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," (Philippians 2:12) yet this is only done because "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)
Therefore although God rewards the "obedience of faith," man can take no real credit for this obedience, both besides owing to God his very breath, in conversion and in the life of faith God enables and motivates man to do what he otherwise could not and would not do. And justifies him by faith imputed for righteousness, making him accepted in the Beloved and seated with Christ in Heaven, to whom he shall go at death or the Lord's return, ( (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)) in contrast to Roman Catholicism in which the soul is justified and fit to enter Heaven by actually becoming good enough, thus normally requiring Purgatory.
However, the choice to disobey God, and even to formally depart from the living loving God is ours, and is what we can take full credit for, though the devil often has his part, and God does not disable man from choosing to sin.
Finally for here is Hebrews 10:
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)
Once again this is written to believers as believers, the Lord's blood-sanctified people, in danger of apostasy, who "have need of patience," that, after they have done the will of God - meaning continued in saving faith which is evidenced by doing the Lord's will - they would receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:36)
Therefore they are warned of the contrary, of forsaking the assembling of ourselves together - the church - and sinning will-fully (inferring continued, impenitent sinning) after having "received the knowledge of the truth" - which term refers to saving belief (1Timothy 2:4; 1Timothy 2:25; 3:7; Titus 1:1). And of thus being most accountable for the most damnable sin, that of in effect having trodden under foot the Son of God, and counting the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace, they are warned of facing worse punishment than despised Moses' law.
These Hebrew Christians are thus reminded of their previous endurance of love faith, having compassion on the writer in his bonds, even taking joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing in themselves that they had in heaven a better and an enduring substance, and thus must not cast not away therefore their confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. (Hebrews 10:34,35)
Therefore two choices are set before them, to continue in the faith and realize its promises beyond this life, or draw back into perdition:
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
In contrast we [the faithful] are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38-39), which once again speaks of the need for perseverance of faith, versus the drawing back into perdition, that of their former damned state, believes are warned against.
I believe this departing from the living God, falling from grace, etc. is what David referred to as "the Great Transgression, " which he prayed he would not fall by, and of "wickedly departing from God," which, though a great sinner who yet repented when convicted by God, he could claim he did not do,
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. (Psalms 19:13)
For I have kept the ways of the Lord [in the overall sense, which includes repentance], and have not wickedly departed from my God. (2 Samuel 22:22)
And Peter tells us how by continuing to grow in grace, adding to faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity "ye shall never fall." (2 Peter 1:)
Moreover, since believers need to have living effectual faith to be saved, and are not "once saved=always saved" thus God works to bring wayward impenitent believers to repentance, via chastening as needed, or else they wold be condemned with the rest of the world.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)
It is great comfort to know that Gods "plays for keeps," to be "confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)
However that this means God will not let any believer choose to depart from him as described herein is contradicted by the warnings against it to believers. God will continue to work, but will allow a believer to grieve the Spirit who strives against the lusts of the flesh, even allowing continued impenitence unto death, or the Lord's return.
But some believers, such as the Philippians and the tested Thessalonians we may have qualified confidence that they will continue with the Lord unto completion (1 Thessalonians 5:23,24) though with regenerated Thessalonians Paul had before "sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain." (1 Thessalonians 3:5)
There are other texts which could be added to this, but in the light of these i can only conclude that God does warn believers against them departing from the living God, drawing back into perdition,making Christ of no effect, of no profit to them, falling from grace, impenitently grieving and doing despite to the Spirit of God, to be condemned with the rest of the world.
And those who attempt to relegate the exhortations and warnings in Galatians and Hebrews to being to unbelievers are either ignorant or unwilling to be honest, for they are clearly written to believers as believers.
Now for your anything in objections not dealt with already.
(A) If the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" can ever cease through the will of the giver or the recipient, it is not eternal and any Scripture employing it would be meaningless.
No, "everlasting life" refers to the life being everlasting, not the possession of it apart from faith. It is the believers possession in faith, (1 John 5:13) to those who believe, (Rm. 6:17,18,23) to be fully realized after he dies in faith, but which one who forsakes faith has no claim to. 1 John 5:13 refers to how one may know he/she has this gift, based on what he wrote before, in which he describes saving faith, and most clearly excludes what i have referred to before, that of departing from the living God, either formally via assent to a clearly false gospel, or forsaking the holy assembly and impenitent will-full sinning.
(B) If a (hu)man can lose his/her salvation through passive mindset or active rejection, then keeping it inherently requires engagement in beneficial works, which is "earning one's way to heaven," with the reward of salvation bestowed only when death terminates one's earthly occupations of mind and body; rather than being a free gift bestowed at the outset of conversion.
As the premise is false so is the conclusion. "Passive mindset" does not refer to what I have described, and mere intellectual faith is not salvific even for conversion, (James 2:18-20) while since an inert faith which does not effect characteristic obedience is dead, thus true faith is evidenced by doing "the will of God from the heart" (Eph. 6:6; cf. 1 Pt. 4:2; 1 John 2:17) ) through the Spirit.(Rm. 8:13; 1Pt. 1:22)
Thus in that sense keeping the faith "inherently requires engagement in beneficial works," but which is Not "earning one's way to heaven." For instead of earning eternal life, the obedience of faith is to be a result of receiving the gift of eternal life by faith, which a true believer continues in. God purifies the heart by faith, (Acts 15:9) which appropriates justification, but works of faith are the evidence of it.
Thus salvation is promised to those who believe, (Jn. 5:24) as well as those who obey the Lord (Heb. 5:9; Rv. 2:26) in the latter case it is not because works earn salvation, but because the one who obeys testifies to being a believer. Thus the promise of forgiveness in Acts 10:43 was if one believed, while in Acts 2:38 it was if they repented and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, since if they did so they were in effect confessing saving faith that believed unto righteousness. (cf. Rm. 10:9,10) But while the response affirmed they were believers, which was attested to by the Spirit, yet the response did not earn salvation or the work itself appropriate justification. Likewise since forgiving the palsied man in Mark 2 meant that was healed, thus the Lord said, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?" (Mark 2:9) since the former meant/effected the latter.
with the reward of salvation bestowed only when death terminates one's earthly occupations of mind and body; rather than being a free gift bestowed at the outset of conversion.
Actually the full realization of salvation certainly awaits the next life, but as explained before the free gift bestowed at the outset of conversion is by faith, and while the life is eternal, the possession of it is contingent upon faith, thus it is forfeited by recanting said faith, and thus the exhortations to continue in the faith in order to receive the promise, and warnings to believers against departing from the living God.
(C) IF (and no doctrine should be based on a conditional statement of this kind) I should be brought up again before the Eternal Judge by the Accuser of the Brethren as to having fallen and violated one or another or several of the ordinances of the law whether unwittingly or deliberately, I would be found guilty, would lose my salvation, be again condemned to Hell, without hope of ever getting it back again. If so, I guarantee you both of us have already lost our salvation forever.
Once again this premise is false thus so is the conclusion. The forfeiting of what appropriated I spoke of is not that of simply violated one or another or several of the ordinances of the law whether unwittingly or even deliberately, except in the latter case knowingly and impenitently. Had Jonah not repented (had not God moved this prophet to do so in extraordinary grace) then I believe he would have suffered greater damnation than the ignorant lost souls.
But while he represented, men who saw great salvation by faith such as king Asa later went South and hardened his heart at Biblical reproof, and died in apparent unbelief. (2 Chronicles 16)
In contrast, those who "died in faith" (Heb. 11:13) or see the Lord's return "shall we ever be with the Lord," (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and no railing accusation by the serpent will derail this.
I choose OSAS as the only justifiable Scriptural alternative, and if I am wrong, in this I will not have made a mistake.
Likewise here, though I once believed as you do, that while only a living faith is salvific, God would bring all the unfaithful to repentant saving faith, which I hope He will, but I cannot deny that clearly I see clear warnings to believers of forfeiting what faith appropriated.
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. (2 Timothy 2:7) And me also.
But while Mormon promotion and apologetics have been excluded, Catholic promotion and apologetics have seen some seeming discriminatory protection.
Elsie: I'm glad the KJV doesn't do this. (Post #220)
In translating verse 10 the KJV does not do this, nor for verse 9, either.
For a deeper understanding of the complexities attendant in comparing translational philosophies of the formal equivalency (KJV, ASV) versus "dynamic" equivalency (NIV, TEV) kinds, I commend to you the paperback "ACCURACY OF TRANSLATION: The Primary Criterion in Evaluating Bible Versions with special reference to the New international Version" by Robert P. Martin (Banner of Truth Trust, Carlisle, PA), 89 pages still available for less than $10 at Christian book stores or online at, say, Amazon (click here). In it, the author analyzes the dynamic elements introduced and aggravated by version like the NIV:
1. The elimination of complex grammatical structures
2. The addition of words in translation 4. The erosion of the Bible's technical terminology
5. The leveling of cultural distinctives
6. The presentation of the interpretation of Scripture as though it were Scripture
7. The paraphrasing of the biblical text
This is one of the books I have read from cover to cover in my study for several years of this debate. The Amazon site includes three reader evaluations a the botttom of the page. Read them.
o If the gift if everlasting life ever quits, it is not everlasting.
o If you can lose your salvation, keeping it means absolutely that you have to earn your way to heaven.
o If you can lose your salvation, you can never get it back again, for the same reason.
o If I have become the possession of Jesus Christ, He will never lose me and no one can snatch me away from His grasp, not even myself.
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While you often have helpful observations, I have not found comfort in a multitude of words:
Prov. 10:19 (AV) :
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Eccl. 5:3 (AV):
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
Eccl. 5:7 (AV):
For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
Pointing three fingers back, I myself have a problem overcoming this tendency, and do my best to be as accurate as possible without boring the reader to tears.
A salud!
I see that my QUOTED Mormon leaders; in #54; have not been addressed.
I've read the gospels; where many events of Jesus' life were recorded.
It appears; on the surface; that the 'formal equivalency' of what ACTUALLY happened is much less important than the '"dynamic" equivalency' seen in comparing them.
Since the Bible has NO modern language that has the same structure or vocabulary today; the BEST we can do; for those who have neither the time or the inclination to be versed in the ancient ones; is to make the best that we can.
I want to know just what the author(s) were trying to get across.
I'd lay good money that on the day of Pentecost, all the hearers UNDERSTOOD the message in their own language and were not worried about whether there were 2,999 other folks in the group or maybe 3,023 of them.
Well; if 'keeping the faith' means WORKING; then you are right.
But every argument FOR 'losing your salvation' indicates that losing FAITH is what does it.
UNBELIEF is a loser; in my Book.
I am with you here.
I hope that my attempts to inject a bit of humor from time to time on FR dampens the kindling.
But; alas; it occasionally fans the fire.
Well until you are willing to read and carefully consider and deal with what challenges your assertions then they are only that.
o If the gift if everlasting life ever quits, it is not everlasting.
And in short, as already explained, there is no quitting of everlasting life, but the appropriation by faith of eternal life promised to believers (1 John 2:25) and thus a forfeiting of the same by recantation of faith. Eternal life is eternal regardless, but the possession is contingent upon believing, which one who has denied the faith, which one can do, (1Tim. 5:8) has no claim to.
o If you can lose your salvation, keeping it means absolutely that you have to earn your way to heaven.
As explained, this is simply absurd. You do not earn salvation when choosing to believe, since this is due to God motivating and enabling you to do what you otherwise would not and could not. And neither is choosing to continue in the faith, to " for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12-13) But what you can and must take credit for is choosing to sin, to grieve the Spirit, even to the point of doing what Scripture clearly warns believers as believers against doing, as was shown, of choosing to depart from the living God, fall from grace, make Christ of no effect, to profit them nothing, and draw back to perdition.
o If you can lose your salvation, you can never get it back again, for the same reason.
Once again, as your promise is false so also is your conclusion. Once again, you can take no credit for choosing to believe, or repenting after falling away, but one can do the latter, and which is what man he must take credit for. There is a real danger of sin unto death, yet we have the promises regarding fallen brethren, "if any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 John 5:16) "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)
o If I have become the possession of Jesus Christ, He will never lose me and no one can snatch me away from His grasp, not even myself.
You are His possession by faith, enabled and motivated by God, and no man can wrest you out of His hand as a believer, for that is who the promise is to, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them [My shhep, wjho follow me] eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27,28) (John 10:27) As believers, we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)
Thus the promise of salvation is always contingent upon believing, but as stewards/caretakers of the manifold grace of God given us (1Pt. 4:10) this does not mean we cannot choose to resist God, and sin, for obviously we can grieving His Spirit, which can extend to even "departing from the living God" through unbelief, as warned against, and Scripture does not contradict itself. as an unbeliever you have forsaken the promise of faith and preservation in Christ.
Pointing three fingers back, I myself have a problem overcoming this tendency, and do my best to be as accurate as possible without boring the reader to tears.
I do not think my paragraphical prolixity was unwarranted, as the subject sees much contention and you provided multiple arguments, and thus careful substantiation and logical reasoning was fitting.
I can't agree with you at all on this, because it is precisely the literal equivalency that gives the best rendering of truth as written at the behest of the Holy Spirit. The proponents of thedynamically (non)equivalent consider themselves completely free to interject their own opinions under the guise of "making it easier to read and understand." I just showed you in one verse where that has been done, and the practice is rife throughout all the non-literal renditions made for an illiteral public. Carrying this to the logical limit, the Bible would be written in a comic book form, or played out in a theater or movie stage.
Let me cut this short. I don't agree with you on any of your theories in this particular reply. What you are going to get in the NIV is the opinion of its translators under the color of giving you God's thoughts rather than giving you His Words. Literally, this version should be titled "God's Thoughts" -- not "God's Words."
I know you like to find fault with certain fallible religionists who present their "dynamic" religion as being a real and commendable one. I cannot understand why you don't apply the same kind of argumentation to this versionitis matter.
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Say!
That verse is almost your screen name!!
I daresay that ALL 'translations' do this to one degree or another.
The KJV folks merely injected the ITALICIZED words to 'help' (ahem) one 'understand the content' better.
And that's exactly the point I would have made had I continued to debate on this. The KJV is superior in this point is that the translators showed you what words they added. If you don't like them, you can read the passage without them. Or even cross them out if you don't agree. You can't do that with the modern translations, therefore you have to digest a dog's breakfast of truth and error.
It is, and it is a faith that never fails that God imparts to the one who hears the Gospel message and responds to it by trusting in The Faithful One, the Lord Jesus Christ, and a new spiritual babe is born in the heart of that person.
If the "faith" fails, if it is merely an intellectual acknowledgement and enthusiasm without the repentance of a convicted heart, it is not the one given by the Father, a spiritual birth has not taken place, the Comforter is not residing, and the power of sin still overtakes that person.
A prominent example is Charles Templeton, the pal of Billy Graham: Click (here) and (here). Here is an excerpt from the last:
"Templeton, as his own story makes plain (p. 3), never truly reached a point where he was intellectually convicted
of the truthfulness of Christianity (what the reformers called assensus). Assensus represents the conviction we
have in our minds. Assent of the mind is vital to our faith. Graham, according to this testimony, had enough
assensus to make a decision. He was not going to be an eternal “tire-kicker” with regard to Christianity.
Sure, he could have waited, like Templeton, until every possible
objection to the faith was answered, but this would amount to a failure of modernistic irrationality. We can never
have all our questions answered. At some point there must be a sufficiency in probability."
Templeton's "Christianity" was just in his head, but apparently never in his heart, so he remained lost to God by refusing the truth of God's Word. The conviction was not complete, nor repentance from sin.
It makes it easy to claim that one cannot lose their salvation because they never had it to lose.
Sorry; but I can't go down that road.
Yes, what Jesus says about it as recorded time and again in the Scriptures makes it abundantly clear. My perception is that it is only those who want to exercise pride in their own holiness and reserve an excuse for retaining habitual sinfulness as a lifestyle who are the ones that cannot accept this transparent unambiguous doubly guaranteed promise to the convicted sinner.
Elsie: Sorry; but I can't go down that road.
Too bad, because that's exactly what the grammar of John 3:16 and John 6:47 demands. In those verses the verb "believe" is in the present tense. The sense is bit different than what one might take from most English translations, which tends to lose the import that saving faith is a continuous, unremitting process in action. John 6:47 is this:
αμην αμην λεγω υμιν ο πιστευων εις εμε εχει ζωην αιωνιον
Translating word by word:
αμην amen; adverb as interjection; meaning "verily," or "certainly," or "Surely"
λεγω lego; verb, present tense, active voice, indicative mode, first person singular; meaning "I keep on saying" or "I constantly say"
υμιν hoomin; pronoun, second person, dative case, plural; meaning "to you-all"
o ho relative pronoun, singular, masculine gender; meaning "who"
πιστευων peest-yoo-ohn; verb, present tense, active voice, participle mode, third person, singular; meaning "he . . . (is) perpetually believing" or "he . . . continually (has) faith"
εις ice; preposition; when followed by the accusative meaning "in" or "into" or "on the basis of"
εμε ehmeh; pronoun, first person, accusative, singulsr; means "me"
εχει ekhayee; verb, present tense, active voice, indicative mode, third person singular; meaning "he constantly has" or "he continually possesses"
ζωην dzoh-ayn; noun, accusative case, feminine gender, singular, anarthrous; meaning "absolute life" or "real sentient existence"
αιωνιον ah-ee-oh-nee-awn; adjective, accusative case, feminine gender, singular; meaning eternal" or "everlasting" or "perpetual" or "without end"
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The sense of this verse is correctly interpreted as follows:
"Most surely, I say unto you-all, (he) who persistently without ceasing has faith in me perpetually possesses absolute sentient existence throughout the ages without end."
That is what the reconciliation transaction is all about, all of my sins conferred to and paid for by Him, in exchange for The Father to impute all His Beloved Son's righteousness to me, a born-anew believer-disciple. In it I can no more reverse the spiritual birth than my physical birth. Both are done deals.
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Elsie, rejection of the "once saved, saved forever" promise of Jesus should have no place in the thoughts of a regenerated believer. And coloring the rejection of it with pejorative terms does not improve the validity of the denial. Nor is it to be treated comically--this is too serious and central to Biblical doctrine to be dismissed with terms like "the old" and "mantra" that projects a kind of haughty demeanor.
Neither in Jesus' ministry or in that of his apostles do the Scriptures ever show them adopting a supercilious, comical attitude as an aid for the advancement of the Gospel. In fact, the humble Jesus, in inviting His hearers to disciple with Him, took the position:
"Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Mt. 11:29 AV).
Now, what kind of rest would that be if it was only offered as a temporary condition, if somehow I could later on descend to some level of ignoring His standards that would send me to Hell and the Lake of Fire?
In fact, though you often criticize the Roman Catholic viewpoint, the claim that a true believer could ignore the indwelling Holy Spirit and lose his salvation puts you squarely in their camp, along with every other Arminianist, doesn't it?
Come to grips with this, man!
". . . I say unto you-all . . ."
better and more grammatically put:
". . . I keep on telling you . . ."
And yet when I read it one way; and actually using the bible to back up my understanding; I get quite a push back.
...Help My Unbelief...
Mark 9:24
It seems that you need validation of your claims here.
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