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To: imardmd1
As to "Once Saved, Always Saved," there is so much Scripture that positively undergirds that viewpoint, with only a few rather weak and cloudy or ambiguous passages that may be interpreted to support either OSAS or Arminianism, that brings me to the conclusions as follows:

Sorry I over looked your reply till now. But actually rather than rather weak and cloudy or ambiguous passages, there are one that are written to believers as believers which at face value clearly warn them as choosing to depart from the living God, fall from grace, make Christ of no effect, to profit them nothing, which defenders of OSAS try to make weak and cloudy or ambiguous, but which I honestly cannot do (though I would like to!).

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)

The subjects here are clearly born again believers, in whom "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father," (Galatians 4:6) and thus were exhorted to Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. Thus this is not some "mixed multitude" of unregenerate and born again souls as some try to make it to be.

They are being seduced by Judaizers who believe in salvation by law-keeping, versus effectual faith which is to result in progressively fulfilling the righteousness of the law, (Rm. 8:4) things fruits "which accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9)

The effect is not the cause, and to succumb to the gospel of the Judaizers (too much akin to Catholicism), signified by being circumcised, would be a denial of faith which is accounted for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) and thus forfeit what faith appropriated. Thus meaning Christ shall profit them nothing, becoming of "no effect", meaning they "fallen from grace." In contrast, "we [believers who are faithful and not fallen] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

This is clear, and only by postulating that Christ profiting them nothing, becoming of "no effect", and being "fallen from grace" means something less than heading to damnation can this be disallowed as contrary to OSAS.

Next up in Hebrews 3:

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)

This also is written to believers as believers in danger of apostasy, who are thus exhorted to keep faith in Christ: whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end," ."For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6,14)

Since we are saved by faith so we have many exhortations to "continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel." (Colossians 1:23)

But there is no more meriting of salvation here than in conversion, in which God draws, convicts, moves and motivates man to repentant faith which He grants/gifts him, though believing is something man does, and conversion is conscious, not as one comatose.

Likewise while believers are exhorted (as by choice) "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," (Philippians 2:12) yet this is only done because "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Therefore although God rewards the "obedience of faith," man can take no real credit for this obedience, both besides owing to God his very breath, in conversion and in the life of faith God enables and motivates man to do what he otherwise could not and would not do. And justifies him by faith imputed for righteousness, making him accepted in the Beloved and seated with Christ in Heaven, to whom he shall go at death or the Lord's return, ( (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)) in contrast to Roman Catholicism in which the soul is justified and fit to enter Heaven by actually becoming good enough, thus normally requiring Purgatory.

However, the choice to disobey God, and even to formally depart from the living loving God is ours, and is what we can take full credit for, though the devil often has his part, and God does not disable man from choosing to sin.

Finally for here is Hebrews 10:

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

Once again this is written to believers as believers, the Lord's blood-sanctified people, in danger of apostasy, who "have need of patience," that, after they have done the will of God - meaning continued in saving faith which is evidenced by doing the Lord's will - they would receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:36)

Therefore they are warned of the contrary, of forsaking the assembling of ourselves together - the church - and sinning will-fully (inferring continued, impenitent sinning) after having "received the knowledge of the truth" - which term refers to saving belief (1Timothy 2:4; 1Timothy 2:25; 3:7; Titus 1:1). And of thus being most accountable for the most damnable sin, that of in effect having trodden under foot the Son of God, and counting the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace, they are warned of facing worse punishment than despised Moses' law.

These Hebrew Christians are thus reminded of their previous endurance of love faith, having compassion on the writer in his bonds, even taking joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing in themselves that they had in heaven a better and an enduring substance, and thus must not cast not away therefore their confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. (Hebrews 10:34,35)

Therefore two choices are set before them, to continue in the faith and realize its promises beyond this life, or draw back into perdition:

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

In contrast we [the faithful] are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38-39), which once again speaks of the need for perseverance of faith, versus the drawing back into perdition, that of their former damned state, believes are warned against.

I believe this departing from the living God, falling from grace, etc. is what David referred to as "the Great Transgression, " which he prayed he would not fall by, and of "wickedly departing from God," which, though a great sinner who yet repented when convicted by God, he could claim he did not do,

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. (Psalms 19:13)

For I have kept the ways of the Lord [in the overall sense, which includes repentance], and have not wickedly departed from my God. (2 Samuel 22:22)

And Peter tells us how by continuing to grow in grace, adding to faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity "ye shall never fall." (2 Peter 1:)

Moreover, since believers need to have living effectual faith to be saved, and are not "once saved=always saved" thus God works to bring wayward impenitent believers to repentance, via chastening as needed, or else they wold be condemned with the rest of the world.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

It is great comfort to know that Gods "plays for keeps," to be "confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

However that this means God will not let any believer choose to depart from him as described herein is contradicted by the warnings against it to believers. God will continue to work, but will allow a believer to grieve the Spirit who strives against the lusts of the flesh, even allowing continued impenitence unto death, or the Lord's return.

But some believers, such as the Philippians and the tested Thessalonians we may have qualified confidence that they will continue with the Lord unto completion (1 Thessalonians 5:23,24) though with regenerated Thessalonians Paul had before "sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain." (1 Thessalonians 3:5)

There are other texts which could be added to this, but in the light of these i can only conclude that God does warn believers against them departing from the living God, drawing back into perdition,making Christ of no effect, of no profit to them, falling from grace, impenitently grieving and doing despite to the Spirit of God, to be condemned with the rest of the world.

And those who attempt to relegate the exhortations and warnings in Galatians and Hebrews to being to unbelievers are either ignorant or unwilling to be honest, for they are clearly written to believers as believers.

Now for your anything in objections not dealt with already.

(A) If the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" can ever cease through the will of the giver or the recipient, it is not eternal and any Scripture employing it would be meaningless.

No, "everlasting life" refers to the life being everlasting, not the possession of it apart from faith. It is the believers possession in faith, (1 John 5:13) to those who believe, (Rm. 6:17,18,23) to be fully realized after he dies in faith, but which one who forsakes faith has no claim to. 1 John 5:13 refers to how one may know he/she has this gift, based on what he wrote before, in which he describes saving faith, and most clearly excludes what i have referred to before, that of departing from the living God, either formally via assent to a clearly false gospel, or forsaking the holy assembly and impenitent will-full sinning.

(B) If a (hu)man can lose his/her salvation through passive mindset or active rejection, then keeping it inherently requires engagement in beneficial works, which is "earning one's way to heaven," with the reward of salvation bestowed only when death terminates one's earthly occupations of mind and body; rather than being a free gift bestowed at the outset of conversion.

As the premise is false so is the conclusion. "Passive mindset" does not refer to what I have described, and mere intellectual faith is not salvific even for conversion, (James 2:18-20) while since an inert faith which does not effect characteristic obedience is dead, thus true faith is evidenced by doing "the will of God from the heart" (Eph. 6:6; cf. 1 Pt. 4:2; 1 John 2:17) ) through the Spirit.(Rm. 8:13; 1Pt. 1:22)

Thus in that sense keeping the faith "inherently requires engagement in beneficial works," but which is Not "earning one's way to heaven." For instead of earning eternal life, the obedience of faith is to be a result of receiving the gift of eternal life by faith, which a true believer continues in. God purifies the heart by faith, (Acts 15:9) which appropriates justification, but works of faith are the evidence of it.

Thus salvation is promised to those who believe, (Jn. 5:24) as well as those who obey the Lord (Heb. 5:9; Rv. 2:26) in the latter case it is not because works earn salvation, but because the one who obeys testifies to being a believer. Thus the promise of forgiveness in Acts 10:43 was if one believed, while in Acts 2:38 it was if they repented and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, since if they did so they were in effect confessing saving faith that believed unto righteousness. (cf. Rm. 10:9,10) But while the response affirmed they were believers, which was attested to by the Spirit, yet the response did not earn salvation or the work itself appropriate justification. Likewise since forgiving the palsied man in Mark 2 meant that was healed, thus the Lord said, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?" (Mark 2:9) since the former meant/effected the latter.

with the reward of salvation bestowed only when death terminates one's earthly occupations of mind and body; rather than being a free gift bestowed at the outset of conversion.

Actually the full realization of salvation certainly awaits the next life, but as explained before the free gift bestowed at the outset of conversion is by faith, and while the life is eternal, the possession of it is contingent upon faith, thus it is forfeited by recanting said faith, and thus the exhortations to continue in the faith in order to receive the promise, and warnings to believers against departing from the living God.

(C) IF (and no doctrine should be based on a conditional statement of this kind) I should be brought up again before the Eternal Judge by the Accuser of the Brethren as to having fallen and violated one or another or several of the ordinances of the law whether unwittingly or deliberately, I would be found guilty, would lose my salvation, be again condemned to Hell, without hope of ever getting it back again. If so, I guarantee you both of us have already lost our salvation forever.

Once again this premise is false thus so is the conclusion. The forfeiting of what appropriated I spoke of is not that of simply violated one or another or several of the ordinances of the law whether unwittingly or even deliberately, except in the latter case knowingly and impenitently. Had Jonah not repented (had not God moved this prophet to do so in extraordinary grace) then I believe he would have suffered greater damnation than the ignorant lost souls.

But while he represented, men who saw great salvation by faith such as king Asa later went South and hardened his heart at Biblical reproof, and died in apparent unbelief. (2 Chronicles 16)

In contrast, those who "died in faith" (Heb. 11:13) or see the Lord's return "shall we ever be with the Lord," (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and no railing accusation by the serpent will derail this.

I choose OSAS as the only justifiable Scriptural alternative, and if I am wrong, in this I will not have made a mistake.

Likewise here, though I once believed as you do, that while only a living faith is salvific, God would bring all the unfaithful to repentant saving faith, which I hope He will, but I cannot deny that clearly I see clear warnings to believers of forfeiting what faith appropriated.

Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. (2 Timothy 2:7) And me also.

222 posted on 11/19/2017 2:23:37 PM PST by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212
I'll look over your contentions later, but for me the shorter version still holds, as it would to the first hearers of the Gospel:

o If the gift if everlasting life ever quits, it is not everlasting.

o If you can lose your salvation, keeping it means absolutely that you have to earn your way to heaven.

o If you can lose your salvation, you can never get it back again, for the same reason.

o If I have become the possession of Jesus Christ, He will never lose me and no one can snatch me away from His grasp, not even myself.

=====

While you often have helpful observations, I have not found comfort in a multitude of words:

Prov. 10:19 (AV) :
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Eccl. 5:3 (AV):
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

Eccl. 5:7 (AV):
For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.

Pointing three fingers back, I myself have a problem overcoming this tendency, and do my best to be as accurate as possible without boring the reader to tears.

A salud!

225 posted on 11/20/2017 3:15:39 AM PST by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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