Posted on 05/19/2016 8:15:59 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo
Not at all surprising.
A thin stream of water shot from a plastic pistol won’t penetrate very far.
Doctors and coroners cannot tell a 9mm wound track from a .45.
This is with top of the line hollowpoint projectiles.
Story on it in SGN in the last year or so.
The issue with over-penetration is that it is only an issue if someone hits their target, and the bullet makes it through and goes on to hit an innocent. For most modern HP designs, that should not be an issue as the most modern HPs do not clog the hollowpoint with clothing (which would turn them into, basically, FMJs). Modern hollow points like the Federal HST, the Winchester Ranger Bonded, and the likes of Critical Duty, do not clog (especially when compared to older hollow points like Federal HydraShok and Winchester Silver Tip, which often clogged).
The big issue is this - missing! If a cop misses his target, then even the most advanced HP design can hurt an innocent. Even Glasers (note though that most cops would not use Glasers as most cops require penetration, and glasers don't have that. This is why many PDs use bonded bullets, or non-bonded bullets that hold together well).
Why is this an important point? Because most police officers are very bad shots (missing most shots taken according to police data). Which means that no matter what type of round they are using, it doesn't mean much if they miss their targets and hit innocents.
To make matters worse, NYPD guns have very hard triggers (12 pound pull, every pull) which makes accurate shots - especially if they are blasting away quickly - very difficult even for people who are normally good shots. Put such hard triggers in the hands of people who generally don't practice that much on average, and the situation is significantly worse.
Anyway, the round used by the NYPD is the Speer Gold Dot HP, in 124 grain (and a +P). It is a bonded bullet, which means it holds together very well (even after hitting auto glass, which normally messes up non-bonded bullets). The Gold Dot has a long history of very good performance, and while it is older than more recent bullets like Federal's HST, it is still a very good round that will do its job if you do yours.
I find it very hard to believe that a bonded bullet was unable to penetrate a jacket, and I suspect that there is something more to this story that is not being reported. Either there was some untruthfulness, or maybe the bullets hit something in the jacket, I do not know. But it is worth noting that the Speer Gold Dot is a bonded bullet with many years of superlative performance.
As for those who are saying the issue was the cops were issued with 9mm and not 'manly' .45s, the truth is that the 9mm is easier to control, has higher carry capacity, and (with modern HPs) is just as lethal as .40/.45. There are enough studies backing this, ranging from the recent FBI study showing the 9mm as the most effective defense round with modern ammo, to reports from police on their inability to differentiate between wounds caused by 9mm HPs and .45 HPs. Indistinguishable.
Yep, buy Carhartt and definitely avoid whoever is selling NYC their ammo.
Yeah, this one ain’t passing the smell test....
—yep—I think my byline applies—
Two cops shoot a total of nine rounds.
My guess is one of them was not carrying “official” ammo.
“Also an advert for Carhart”
or, Duluth Trading Company. LOL.
“the recent FBI study showing the 9mm as the most effective defense round with modern ammo, to reports from police on their inability to differentiate between wounds caused by 9mm HPs and .45 HPs.”
I understand that.
My only point is that handgun hunters who hunt with dogs have a lot different idea of the minimum caliber for taking soft-skinned, human size prey like cougars.
To their telling, several hits with a 9mm will eventually work, but first the cat comes down the tree, mauls the dogs, then runs into the bush and dies over the next hill.
Note, I am not a handgun hunter (illegal in Canada), so all comments about handgun hunting are second hand.
It is my recollection that Glasers were developed for the Air Marshal program. They were the first of the frangible designs and would not penetrate the aluminum skin of an airliner which would cause a catastrophic decompression event. It has been demonstrated that they cause impressive wounds in jello tests FWIW. I carry Speer Gold Dots in my .38 snubby because I won’t be shooting anything inside an aircraft.
Still is Speer gold dot, 124 grain 9mm+p JHP. Just looked it up.
CC
A cougar is similar in size to a leopard, and in Africa they are considered very difficult to hunt (same thing in India, where man eating leopards are considered worse than tigers). The thing about them is this - and I will delete the fact that they are fast, cunning and sharp of tooth and claw. The thing is they have huge lungs, and their blood is significantly more oxygenated than that of a human. Big game hunters (and leopards are considered big game, which is why it's interesting to me that the hunters consider cougar human-equivalents) have shot right through leopard hearts, and the leopard still has enough moxie to finish the charge and mail them. Big game hunters would often wear 'leopard armor' (a metal or heavy leather neck protector) when tracking leopard spoor in the bush, because at close quarters the brain and blood would be sufficiently oxygenated to finish a charge even when the heart was shredded.
What does that have to do with Cougars? Similar sized cat, and more importantly, similarly oxygenated blood that is at a level no human ever alive would have. Which is why the cat can be shot, mess up your dogs, and then run off to die. A bigger bullet can do a better job than a 9mm (same reason people hunting leopards never use pistols), but my point is simply that no cat (even house cats) are a comparison to humans no matter how soft the skin is.
Dogs and boars are another. I've heard about how 'measly' 9mm will at times shatter on their skulls. Thing is their skulls are very different from that of a human, and depending on shot angle the round can be deflected.
Anyway, for most human beings, a pistol of normal barrel length shooting modern hollow points in 9mm, will be more than enough to ensure they give proper attention. As for those few who seem to shrug 9mm bullets (and we are talking HPs and not FMJs, so no Moro Moro tribesmen), they would similarly shrug off .45s (there are interesting stories of people who have soaked up multiple bullet hits, some eventually dying later and others making it, including .45s)
A modern hollow point fired by someone who can hit the broad side of a barn more times than not is 100% effective is virtually every situation.
Would you personally carry a 9mm semi as your brown bear deterrent device in the bush, or would you go with a larger calibre?
However, if I was more worried about two-legged less-furry critters with opposable thumbs that may be shooting back at me, I would carry a bullet that gives me a high carry capacity but is still good enough to penetrate deep enough, and with modern HP technology, is assured to expand to 0.65 (or even more in the case of the 145gr Federal HST).
That would be the 9mm.
Thus, for semis, in bear country 10mm, and in human country 9mm. Why? Because each capitalizes on its specific strengths against specific targets.
145 grain HST should have been 147 grain HST. Typing on a phone
Well, not to nit-pick, but apparently it was. I'm not inclined to get back into the caliber holy wars (except for trolling fun) because the fact is that modern ammunition has done some strange things: given credibility back to the venerable .380, for one. I still wouldn't want that as a primary carry piece but you fight with the gun you have on you, after all.
I'm an advocate of equipping people who are armed in my interest with the best ammunition available in a very competitive market. Limiting military or law enforcement.personnel to non-expanding ammunition, for example, based on the century-old first Hague Convention that we didn't even sign, strikes me as perfectly silly and irresponsible. We know far more about this technology now than we did in 1899.
Personally I'd suspect shot placement long before I'd suspect ammunition, but we'll see what the investigation comes up with.
I’m not sure about the cougar and leopard comparison. North American hunters seem to think cougar is easier to kill than a black bear so... anyway i think most people would rather deal with a black bear than a leopard.
My thinking on this has been heavily influenced by an article reprint posted in this discussion on handguns for bear and cougar:
look for a long post by JJHACK, title “Hunting bears with handguns”
He has a section on police wanting to take treed bears with their duty guns, and the relative performance of the different calibers.
Now a bear is not soft skinned like a cougar (cougar with carhartt coat?) but the author makes a comparison between a 300 pound treed bear full of adrenaline and a 300 pound criminal hopped up on dope.
I’m not sure how exact the comparison between a 300 pound treed bear and a 300 pound male wearing heavy clothing and hopped up on dope. But I think it is worth thinking about.
Now, I train for what I am most likely to meet. While it's possible I can bump into an escaped lion or Cape buffalo, chances are anything that goes bump in the night will be two legged (belonging to Al Shabaab). Chances also are if I shoot the bad guy several times center mass with good quality HPs, that he'll probably decide to go meet his virgins. Additionally, and this is important, I am very good with the 9mm, i am IDPA ranked as a sharpshooter (and I am sure with more practice I can go to Expert), and I love the capacity of the 9mm in a Glock. Also important, if my mate has, say, a 1911 with 7 rounds of .45, and I shoot the terrorist center mass several times with my 9mm Glock and NOTHING happens, then I can assure you my mate with his .45 1911 will also get the same reaction: nothing. We will know we are shooting at a zombie (or a terrorist with body armor), and opt for another approach.
Bottom line is this - with modern HP ammo, the caliber wars are dead (and the 9mm won). While there is a place for other calibers, and there are many who are deadly accurate and fast with bigger calipers (including 10mm and .45s), for most the 9mm is the perfect equation of penetration, expansion, controllability, capacity and cost! That is hard to beat.
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