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To: Swordmaker
You are an idiot if you think I think it is "Magic" . . . I was one of 100 High School Students in the United States in the mid 60s selected by Bell Labs to participate in some of their projects such as making our own transistors. . . and then later participate in voice creation via electronics.

That is not vector graphics, or any sort of graphics at all.

Don't talk to me about me thinking things are "magic," when you try to tell me that converting vector shaped graphics into EDITABLE text is a trivial evolution of 8x8 grid ASCII code text.

And it's statements like these that make me think you have no idea how any of this works. Your statement can be taken two ways, and both of them indicate you are ignorant on this subject.

In one interpretation, "editable text" means editing the text characters. Yes, this could be done by bit banging the character generator rom, in character generator type systems. It can be done more easily and on the fly in any memory based pixel system. IT IS A BIG NOTHING.

In the other interpretation, "editable text" means "word processing, which was also big nothing.

What do you think a vector based text system does? It simply fills in memory pixels based on the vector directions given in the character description. The end product is a pattern in graphics memory. I was drawing objects (sprites) and resizing/rotating them on a TRS-80 back in 1977-78.

Of course, they are plotted as mere dots on a raster screen, but I really do not think you know the complexities involved in maintaining an EDITABLE, contextual TEXT as a vector graphic. YOU are the one who thinks that's magic. . . just a simple series of easily calculable vectors. . . but now put those on a screen and make them EDITABLE with a keyboard as TEXT, and maintain kerning, spacing, proportion, at all sizes possible. That is not an easy task.

No, I think it's pretty easy. Especially when most of the work has been done for you two decades earlier. Again dude, I draw all sorts of crap with graphics displays all the time. It is really not so incredibly advanced as you seem to think it is.

Other computer companies could not do it.

Correction. DID NOT BOTHER TO DO IT. They probably thought it was trivial too. The only people who wanted that sissy stuff were women, poetry writers, educrats, and various other assorted left wing style over substance types. Newspaper and Magazine people fall into this category as well.

The make excuses because they could not. Steve Jobs and Apple found a way to do that because Steve Jobs insisted on it. .

Another statement that indicates you do not know how any of this stuff works. No dude, there was no great secret or "brilliance" to developing vector fonts. I think most people in the industry at the time simply thought their usefulness wasn't worth the degree of effort which would be required to implement them in that era.

If I was trying to build a first class computing machine back in those days, I wouldn't be worrying about the trivia of how pretty the fonts can be made to be. I would be trying to get my operations per second up, or increase memory access speed, better storage, better graphics, anything but stupid fonts. That crap appeals to little girly minds who like playing with "my little pony", not to serious men.

I remember in the early 1980s when people were talking about that Post script stuff. I thought to myself at the time that the whole thing was just D@mn silly, and grown adults ought to have better things to do than diddle around with curlicues and embellishments. If you are going to worry about such superficial crap, you might as well "bedazzle" everything.

I thought the efforts in this direction were mostly worthy of contempt. It was a lot of effort put forth on something that really did not matter. It was beyond trivial.

But yes, it appealed to all the girly minds out there to the same degree as the latest makeup and fingernail polish. Those are successful businesses too, and in the area of fonts, there is probably a very large overlap with makeup.

Frankly, even Apple was not perfect at doing it. . . because the early MacIntosh had to use some "screen fonts" to represent some commercially available printer fonts. . . instead of the ones it could draw as vector graphics, because the fontographers who made them, did not provide the vector graphic files for screen display Apple used on their own fonts.

Silly crap. If you are doing a graphics memory dump, you don't need to be worrying about fonts. It's just pixels at that point. Changing it into fonts just makes the process messier and more complicated.

DUMP THE MEMORY.

That is no trivial thing and is the very essence of innovation and invention, regardless of how many people Jobs involved in making it happen.

No, I think it was pretty trivial, and very much akin to coming out with a new shade of fingernail polish or mascara.

No, they did not. . . It's a walkie-talkie.

Yeah, like the Iwatch, which the Dick Tracy cartoonist thought of decades before Steve Jobs.

I guess Jobs got a lot of his ideas from cartoons and movies. :)

But that is STILL FICTION and a long stretch from FAKE to a working product that changes the world of smartphones and how they work, the user interface, their shapes, and even their colors. . . all thanks to the vision of one man, Steve Jobs.

And the only thing Steve Jobs had the mental acuity to produce were FAKES. He couldn't do the engineering. He couldn't make anything himself. He could point at cartoons and movies and then tell his engineers, "Make one of those or I will yell at you and threaten to fire you!"

Steve Jobs was a spoiled little rich boy who could get in other people's faces and say "That's not good enough! I want something cooler, something better, something super duper stupendously fantastic!"

And he could keep pushing his spoiled little rich boy act until the people who did the real work could produce something that satisfied the little spoiled brat.

Um, no. The Apple II was not the biggest nor best hobbyist computer.

It certainly was from 1977 to 1982. What, did you think it was gonna last forever?

51 posted on 10/09/2015 11:04:24 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
I was drawing objects (sprites) and resizing/rotating them on a TRS-80 back in 1977-78.

Oh, whoop-do-do! Sprites. . . collisions. . . all that? More child's play. Easily defined and easily tracked. NOT the same at all, and no where nearly the complexity of what I am talking about. YOU really don't have a clue what this is about. . . and what a sea change in technology it was.

Do you even know what kerning is? How do you kern two characters that have parts that stroke under other characters? Or how about characters that extend into other characters without conflicts of the points.


Consider the "T", "q" and "b" character in the above editable text flow and tell us how EASY and TRIVIAL that is to do and keep it editable. How do you adjust the kerning, the character spacing, and make it so you can drag cursor through that or easily select just one character in that string of characters to change? None of that was created by a trivial "character generator ROM." You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. . . except to throw spit wads. . . at those who did it.

Another statement that indicates you do not know how any of this stuff works. No dude, there was no great secret or "brilliance" to developing vector fonts. I think most people in the industry at the time simply thought their usefulness wasn't worth the degree of effort which would be required to implement them in that era. If I was trying to build a first class computing machine back in those days, I wouldn't be worrying about the trivia of how pretty the fonts can be made to be. I would be trying to get my operations per second up, or increase memory access speed, better storage, better graphics, anything but stupid fonts. That crap appeals to little girly minds who like playing with "my little pony", not to serious men.

I remember in the early 1980s when people were talking about that Post script stuff. I thought to myself at the time that the whole thing was just D@mn silly, and grown adults ought to have better things to do than diddle around with curlicues and embellishments. If you are going to worry about such superficial crap, you might as well "bedazzle" everything.

More proof that you are an idiot. . . manipulating graphics is one of the heavy duty uses that require faster memory access, faster calculation, and heavier data usage. . . and the more detail the greater the density required. Moving text around does NOT require any of those things you are talking about. . . and not the reason anyone was building faster computers with more memory with better graphics. Not at all.

YOU DISMISS the very thing that moved the industry ahead. . . the pursuit of the ability to move better graphics on the screen and output better graphics faster. . . whether it is on paper, film, or video. You think it is manipulating mere alphanumeric text? BS, Diogenes.

In the other interpretation, "editable text" means "word processing, which was also big nothing.

NO, Diogenes, it does NOT mean "word processing" which shows you have no clue about what you are talking about. IT means DOCUMENT processing. . . a totally different animal than mere WORD processing. . . it means LAYOUT and seeing the document as you change everything about itin real time, calculating those changes on the fly. . . Now, handle what you see on the screen and translate into an entirely different resolution to make it match EXACTLY on a printer, so that nothing is lost, yet your printing mode may be as different as a 300 DPI laser printer or a 3200 DPI offset press. . . or a photo printing system at even higher resolution. . . all of which require different levels of precision in their calculation. . . far more than moving a pre-defined "sprite" around on a TRS-80 screen!

Silly crap. If you are doing a graphics memory dump, you don't need to be worrying about fonts. It's just pixels at that point. Changing it into fonts just makes the process messier and more complicated.

Silly crap. If you are doing a graphics memory dump, you don't need to be worrying about fonts. It's just pixels at that point. Changing it into fonts just makes the process messier and more complicated.

Again, you demonstrate your total ignorance of what you are talking about. No, it was not a "memory dump." PostScript was a programing language in which the fonts were a description of how to DRAW each character, with exact details of each. . . down to angles, arcs, radii, etc. They were NOT any kind of a "memory dump" because they had to be interpreted by multiple devices and converted to ANY resolution output. If they were merely a memory dump, the page being displayed at 72DPI could not be printed at 300 DPI or better without duplicating the dots of the screen memory it was dumping. That was what rasterized printing did. . . and it looked it. Dot Matrix printers did GREAT at doing those kind of memory dumps. . . while they and daisy wheel printers were great at character printing too.

Yeah, like the Iwatch, which the Dick Tracy cartoonist thought of decades before Steve Jobs.

More of your abysmal ignorance, Diogenes. . . and dishonesty. Steve Jobs has been DEAD for almost 4 years before the Apple Watch came out. He had NOTHING to do with the watch.

It certainly was from 1977 to 1982. What, did you think it was gonna last forever?

You must have thought so. . .

You really are an asshat, you know that?

59 posted on 10/09/2015 7:35:20 PM PDT by Swordmaker ( This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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