Everyone Who Wanted More F-22s Is Being Proven Right

Foxtrot Alpha ^ | 09/25/2015 | Tyler Rogoway

[Cringing Negativism Network]

As if they suddenly came to an epiphany, the United States Air Force brass is now admitting what many of us have been screaming about for so long: We didn’t build nearly enough F-22s, and the F-35 cannot simply pick up the slack. So why aren’t those who pushed so hard to cancel the F-22 program being held accountable?

By the mid 2000s, the F-22 was finally entering the fray as the world’s first true stealth fighter, offering a quantum leap in capability and performance when compared with anything else on the battlefield. It was a thoroughbred weapon system meant to shape the battlefield by vanquishing anything in the skies and neutering enemy air defenses, so that less capable combat aircraft could survive over the battle space. It was a high-end door kicker, the ultimate “anti-access” fighter.

At the same time that the Raptor was coming online and proving itself, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, of both the Bush and Obama Administrations, was calling for the F-22’s demise. This was said to be due to the aircraft cost and use as “only” an air-to-air, destruction of enemy air defense, and deep strike platform.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/everyone-who-wanted-more-f-22s-is-being-proven-right-1732105884

[Afterguard]

There’s really nothing that can compare to the F-22. It is an air superiority fighter. The F-35 was never meant to replace the F-22. it is a strike-fighter intended to be “joint” service/nationality.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

I would think most all F-15 tooling was amortized,

What are you, a subversive or something??? Don’t you know that when the politicians want to spend money on a new machine, they pretend that the production run will be infinite - so it doesn’t matter that the development costs of the existing system are sunk, and that the new item is a paper tiger which will undoubtedly cost more to develop than they are estimating.

The F-18 would have never been built if honest accounting had been applied, after the development costs of the F-14 were sunk. The F-18 was a “low cost” alternative - if you don’t factor in that

• the F-18 was a new development, over and above the development of the F-17 which “won” the competition (notwithstanding that the Navy had been directed to go along with the Air Force, which selected the F-16).

• the F-18 was inadequate while it was on the drawing board.

• the “F-18E/F” model was an entirely different aircraft from the “original” F-18 - bigger, with very little commonality other than looking like earlier F-18s, only significantly bigger. A complete redo of the development costs.

• even the bigger E/F model just has such limited fuel capacity as to have laughable range/endurance compared to an F-14. To compare the two is literally a joke. Even the F-15 can’t begin to compare to the F-14. That means more need for tankers, more refueling missions, and more exposure of the carrier to proximity to its target.

All that money spent for a radical degradation of capability. How anyone can think that was “economical” is beyond me. And if by some miracle you make that case, it was still pennywise pound foolishness.

But as to whether the cost of developing/tooling the F-15 was “amortized,” what does that matter? Beyond peradventure, they were sunk. Money spent is gone, and there is no point in crying over spilt milk if that money is not “amortized."

[Lee Enfield]

I believe Boeing is still seeking overseas sales for the F-15.
A bit of re-tooling and updating and we could have a top of the line gen 4.5 fighter.

[USNBandit]

The F-22 is a radically huge leap in capability. It is hard to judge how the unit cost would have dropped with the purchase of additional aircraft, but it would still be an exceedingly expensive aircraft.

On the F-35 front we still don't know how expensive the unit cost will be. The primary reason for F-35 over F-22 is obviously not the air to air piece, but the air to mud piece. The original spec was for internal carriage of 2 x 2k lbs class J weapons. Can't do that in a F-22.

It shouldn't be a matter of either, but rather the right combination of both. Having been a Navy strike guy for 20 years I would prefer for my kid to fly an F-35 downtown to deliver justice, but I would want a sweep of F-22s out in front of him.

[rdcbn]

They needed money to pay for MRAPs in Iraq. Gates said as much when he said, and I paraphrase, I don’t need F22s, I need MRAPs.

---

And whatever happened to those desperately needed MRAPs

We left many of them In Iraq for the Iraqi Army.

Obama made sure they were handed over to ISIS without a shot being fired.

[drunknsage]

Why would we waste another dollar on an aircraft we don’t need? It’s the golden hammer for an ant approach.

We should be dusting or producing more OV-10’s for COIN and CAS operations. A vast majority of military aviation operations over the past decade have been this role. We’ve flown the A10 till the wingers are coming off and the f35 is ill suited and too expensive for this work. Do you know how much the helmet alone for an f35 costs? It’s absurd.

We are finally getting around to developing another dedicated CAS COIN aircraft, the super tucano, but it pales in comparison to the bronco. The plane that could almost do anything was retired waaaaay too early, right when it could benefit from systems it needed to stay in the game.

couple of facts about the bronco. It can run off pump gas, requires hand tools for servicing, easily transported, it handles STOL and rough runways, and it has so much versatility it can do almost anything. But some pimp in the military wanted to whore out another contract so he could get a fat cat job on retirement.

The incestuous relationship between military arms manufacturers and the military needs to end. Their greed and perverse sense of ethics has cost trillions. If we are to remain an effective fighting force it needs to stop and heads need to roll until all the greedy swine are gone or in jail. Are we really going to continue using super cruising stealth fighters to kill guys with backpacks and guns?

I love the military, especially aviation, and I want to see them with the most effective tools on earth, but we can’t have that when the culture is rotten to the core and simply refuses to come back down to earth. How many more decades and trillions wasted is it going to take, how many more bungled projects? It’s like crazy people are running things for the past 50 years. CAS should be our primary focus for aviation but it’s always an afterthought done with old aircraft that are falling apart. The best planes ever for this role have been old, outdated, and nearly unwanted aircraft. The sky raider and the havoc are the best examples. Wings were falling off the havoc and pilots died before brass woke up and realized something needed to be done.

If it came down to it, go f22 and ditch the F35. Pilots want the 22, the 35 is a joke.

[RC one]

I hear ISIS is using them as car bombs. Don’t know if it’s true or not. Pretty sure plenty of them ended up in police custody here in the states too which I might not havea problem with if our President didn’t consider white conservative Christian Americans as enemies.

[Jack Hydrazine]

It seems like they had an excuse for any reason to get rid of the F-22. Either they have been lobbied by certain monied interests in killing the F-22 and keeping the F-35 going or they are working for a enemy power.

[rockinqsranch]

I don’t recall if the F-22 was ever discussed as for sale to other nations as is the F-35.

If it was, then the “why” concept of everybody flying the same piece of shit goes out the window.

Seems to me IF the F-22 wasn’t discussed as for sale to our alleged allies then the reason the F-35 was preferred by the (let us say) more liberal of perspective who were in the driver’s seat at the time of the decision to cancel the F-22 would be something along the lines of their insane M.A.D. theory.

I don’t understand why American’s haven’t still figured out the necessity to scrutinize candidates for Leftist Hare Brainedidity before pulling the lever in the voting booth.

[Yo-Yo]

Air Force brass was always asking for more F-22s. It was Defense Secretary Robert Gates under both Bush and Obama that capped production at 187 aircraft, in order to save money for the F-35 program.

[2001convSVT]

Dittos, my two faviorite also!

[Jet Jaguar]

Active Duty ping.

[Ghost of SVR4]

Perhaps you would like to comment on whether the Army should be allowed to field fixed-wing attack aircraft since the Air Force isn’t concerned with that mission any longer.

This comment is tantamount to what is wrong with the Pentagon and DOD. The Air Force is just that, Air superiority. Its sole function is securing the skies once and for all in theater. The Army is the army; boots on the ground with Helo's in vast demand for support. The Navy and Marines by virtue of their forward operating presence need a platform to secure their entry to establish the bulk head so the Air Force and Army can come in and do their job which is to end a war or conflict.

I am former Marine, I love my Corps as well I love the Navy that got me to where I needed to be and gave the overhead support. However my force was (and still is) small and mission simple, secure a place for other American forces (Army and Air Force) to arrive and bring the might of the United States to full bore.

I don't see why it is so difficult.

[Redmen4ever]

The AF would take away our helicopters if they could, and use that money for air superiority. For forty years they’ve been proposing air-superiority platforms. Ground support is an afterthought. In Viet Nam, we lost planes because they had obsolete MIGs and mostly had next generation platforms not really capable of close-in combat.

Check out how much ordinance the Marine version of the F-35 can bring to the battle, how long it can stay on site, how it requires the Navy to resurface of its/your amphibious assault ships, and how many F-35s you’ll be getting as distinct from your current fleet of attack aircraft given that each Marine variant costs.

Thanks for your service jarhead from an old straight leg Army infantryman.