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Strange thrust: the unproven science that could propel our children into space
BoingBoing ^ | 11/24/14 | Charles Platt

Posted on 11/25/2014 1:21:49 AM PST by LibWhacker

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To: Rides_A_Red_Horse

LOL


41 posted on 11/25/2014 2:58:08 PM PST by LibWhacker ("Every Muslim act of terror is followed by a political act of cover-up." -Daniel Greenfield)
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To: Nateman
The article is slightly misleading, in that it suggests the mass of a particle increases as velocity increases -- the effect which you note, is small at velocities which are not an appreciable fraction of c. But the motion he is measuring is not a result of moving the capacitor.

The effect he is using in his capacitor is the mass-energy equivalence, which comes from the same relativistic derivation, for which E = mc2.

By increasing the charge on the capacitor plates, he is increasing the electric field between them, thus the stored energy in the capacitor (CV2/2, C: capacitance, V: voltage) which amounts to an increase in the "mass" stored in the electric field. By moving the capacitor within the torsion balance, the plates move by differential amounts -- according to his theory -- as the electric field reverses.

It's still a small effect, but it doesn't depend on increasing the mass by actually moving the capacitor. The motion of the capacitor is only used to produce torsional changes to show that a differential force is being produced -- thus an acceleration without reactive mass.

I'm skeptical of the explanation given here. Popular science articles are usually barely worth reading, but I'm distrustful of any article that talks about "increasing the mass" of an object relativistically. Physicists simply do not think in those terms with respect to relativistic effects anymore, and haven't for a very long time. I haven't been a working physicist for thirty years, and it was already out of fashion for at least twenty years when I was still plying the trade.

42 posted on 11/26/2014 12:09:25 AM PST by FredZarguna (Jean à de longues moustaches. Je répète: Jean à de longues moustaches.)
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To: GraceG
All one has to do is find a way to convert potential electrical energy in to a Directed Kinetic type energy...

One has found a way to do that: his name was Moritz Jacobi, when he invented the electric motor in 1834.

It's been in all the papers.

43 posted on 11/26/2014 12:14:05 AM PST by FredZarguna (Jean à de longues moustaches. Je répète: Jean à de longues moustaches.)
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To: LibWhacker; All
James F. Woodward
44 posted on 11/26/2014 12:28:16 PM PST by EveningStar
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To: LibWhacker; 04-Bravo; 1FASTGLOCK45; 1stFreedom; 2ndDivisionVet; 2sheds; 60Gunner; 6AL-4V; ...
Aviation and Aerospace ping

Click here to view: Highlights in the History of Aviation and Aerospace - The Past, The Present, and The Future

Please ping me to aviation and aerospace articles. Thank you.

If you want added to or removed from this ping list, please contact EveningStar or Paleo Conservative.

45 posted on 11/26/2014 12:31:07 PM PST by EveningStar
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To: 22202NOVA

The Bang/Zoom Co-efficient.


46 posted on 11/26/2014 12:55:41 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: LibWhacker
I only read a few paragraphs so far, but already I have issues with some statements:

Mach 1 is the speed of sound at sea level

No, Mach 1 is the speed of sound, regardless of altitude.

When a gyroscope is spinning, it resists being pushed around because it is interacting with the Earth, the stars, and distant galaxies. If those objects didn't exist, the gyroscope would have no inertia.

No, it resists being pushed around because it has mass (inertia). That doesn't require interaction with other objects.

47 posted on 11/26/2014 2:35:27 PM PST by zipper (In Their Heart Of Hearts, Every Democrat Is A Communist.)
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To: LibWhacker

The Space Studies Institute is championing the cause, inviting tax-deductible donations.

...

It’s safe to stop reading when you get to the above sentence.


48 posted on 11/26/2014 2:39:42 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: zipper
The speed of sound is quite a complicated subject and is dependent upon a number of different variables, some of which one could guess, some of which one would have difficulty guessing. For example, it depends on the density of the material through which it is propagating; it's faster in rock than in air and faster in iron than in rock, etc. It can depend upon the temperature, heat capacity and pressure of a medium. It can even depend upon the frequency of the sound wave. It's enough to drive a physics student mad.

You might think, well then, let's restrict our attention to a gas, since the atmosphere is a gas. But... there are different types of gases, including one called an ideal gas, and the rules are different for each of them. Ideal gases do not exist in nature but physicists like them because the calculations are easier and the speed of sound in an ideal gas does not depend on things like temperature, pressure, density, etc. Air is almost an ideal gas, but not quite. So there is actually a variation in the speed of sound in air with different altitudes... For example, check out the following table (from Wiki):

Given normal atmospheric conditions, the temperature, and thus speed of sound, varies with altitude:

Altitude Temperature m·s−1 km·h−1 mph knots
Sea level 15 °C (59 °F) 340 1225 761 661
11,000 m−20,000 m
(Cruising altitude of commercial jets,
and first supersonic flight)
−57 °C (−70 °F) 295 1062 660 573
29,000 m (Flight of X-43A) −48 °C (−53 °F) 301 1083 673 585
One can even say the speed of sound varies with latitude, as in the following graph:

Ignore the information for Titan, Mars and Venus for now, and just concentrate on the graph for the Earth. Notice that the speed of sound is different at various altitudes at the North Pole (dashed line) than at the equator (solid line). I think it has to do with the fact that air is not an ideal gas and that the average temperature at the North Pole is colder (of course) than at the equator, but I'm not sure. Like I said, it's enough to drive a person who is trying to understand this stuff insane!

Regarding your other point. It's a good point and I have a hard time myself believing that my mass sitting here on Earth has anything to do with every little lump of rock clear across the universe. But that is exactly the point of the article. And you have to admit Ernst Mach's point makes you stop and think:

What if there was only one object in the universe? Mach argued that it could not have a velocity, because according to the theory of relativity, you need at least two objects before you can measure their velocity relative to each other... Taking this thought experiment a step further, if an object was alone in the universe, and it had no velocity, it could not have a measurable mass, because mass varies with velocity.

49 posted on 11/26/2014 11:17:54 PM PST by LibWhacker ("Every Muslim act of terror is followed by a political act of cover-up." -Daniel Greenfield)
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To: zipper
Re Mach 1, that is what I thought to but just to be certain I looked it up

"Mach number is a common 'ratio' unit of speed when one is talking about aircrafts. By definition, Mach number is a ratio of the speed of a body (aircraft) to the speed of sound in the undisturbed medium through which the body is traveling. It is said that the aircraft is flying at Mach 1 if its speed is equal to the speed of sound in air (which is 332 m/s or 1195 km/hr or 717 miles/hour.) An aircraft flying at Mach 2 is flying at twice the speed of sound in air, etc."

http://www.physlink.com/Education/askExperts/ae58.cfm

Now I am confused Mach is a ratio but Mach 1 is an actual speed?

50 posted on 11/27/2014 9:35:31 AM PST by jpsb (Believe nothing until it has been officially denied)
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To: jpsb
,I>Now I am confused Mach is a ratio but Mach 1 is an actual speed?

Mach 1 is when the speed is equal to the speed of sound -- a ratio of 1.0-to-1.

51 posted on 11/27/2014 9:37:57 AM PST by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: jpsb

okie01 is right, “mach” is a ratio of the actual speed vs. the true air speed of sound under that set of conditions (mostly changes with altitude).


52 posted on 11/27/2014 10:32:49 AM PST by zipper (In Their Heart Of Hearts, Every Democrat Is A Communist.)
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To: Viking2002

I searched very carefully the entire picture and sequences. I could not, no matter how carefully I looked, find the coffee pot.


53 posted on 11/27/2014 10:55:30 AM PST by MHGinTN
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To: LibWhacker

btt


54 posted on 11/27/2014 11:04:26 AM PST by Marie
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To: zipper; okie01
Zipper: Oh, I see what you were saying in your earlier post! You were 100% correct, and I was wrong. My mistake, sorry. I thought you were saying the speed of sound was the same at every altitude, but that was because I didn't understand what Mach 1 was until this very moment.

I actually thought it was the speed of sound at sea level. How many times have we heard that it was? I know I've heard it many times (including, I think, from some physicists) and just took it at its face value without ever really thinking about it. Mach 1 is a variable that depends on many things but has no meaning unless it's applied to some object or body that's moving through the air (or medium in question). It varies from place to place in the medium, depending on where the moving object is, what the composition, density, temperature and pressure are at that point, etc. You can be flying along at Mach 1 one moment and then the next moment NOT be flying at Mach 1, even though your speed hasn't changed. Thanks for the schooling, guys! :-)

55 posted on 11/27/2014 1:10:15 PM PST by LibWhacker ("Every Muslim act of terror is followed by a political act of cover-up." -Daniel Greenfield)
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To: FredZarguna
Lets say you have a centrifuge in space, consisting of a long, hollow tube with a weight, a piston in this case, free to move from one end of the tube/shaft to the other.
For 270 degrees of its' rotation you expose the piston, through the tube/shaft at its' center rotational point, to the vacuum of space.
The piston is held at or near the center point due to the vacuum, with a certain inertial mass.
For 90 degrees you close off the vacumm of space allowing the centrifugal force to move the piston outward towards the end of the tube/shaft, increasing the inertial mass of the piston.
At the end of the 90 degrees, you again expose the piston, through the tube/shaft, to the vacuum of space for 270 degrees, drawing it again towards the center of the centrifuge, reducing the piston's inertial mass.
Rotational speed kept constant during cycles.
Keep repeating the cycle.

Reactionless drive or not?

56 posted on 11/28/2014 7:53:51 PM PST by The Cajun (Ted Cruz, Sarah Palin, Mark Levin, Mike Lee, Louie Gohmert....Nuff said.)
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To: The Cajun
If the piston can move freely, the rotation will send the piston to the end of the tube farthest from the axis of rotation whether it's exposed to vacuum or not.

[

The center of mass of the piston is actually a point of unstable equilibrium. Theoretically the piston would remain in the middle if it started there if it were a point mass, but even in that case it would not move from the point of unstable equilibrium when the tube is opened or closed to space.

In real life, the piston is not a point mass, and cannot be perfectly balanced, so, like a pencil being balanced on its point it it will leave the point of unstable equilibrium and move toward the end of the tube where the rotational inertia of the piston is greatest. That end of the tube is one of two points of stable equilibrium, and it will remain there as long as the tube spins, vacuum or no vacuum.

]

57 posted on 12/01/2014 2:59:27 PM PST by FredZarguna (Jean à de longues moustaches. Je répète: Jean à de longues moustaches.)
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