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"Six centuries before Jesus Christ, the Buddha already knew that if God does not exist, then the human self cannot exist either....Therefore, he deconstructed the Hindu idea of the soul. When one starts peeling the onion skin of one's psyche, he discovers that there is no solid core at the center of one's being. Your sense of self is an illusion. Reality is nonself (anatman). You don't exist. Liberation, the Buddha taught, is realizing the unreality of your existence."

Vishal Mangalwadi's observation rings true to me. If it is true, then somebody — TigersEye??? — please explain to me in what way Buddhism is anything other than an exercise in nihilism?

Dear spirited, in your splendid Post 50, you quoted Rabindranath R. Maharaj as follows:

During daily meditation I began to have visions of psychedelic colors, to hear unearthly music, and to visit exotic planets where the gods conversed with me, encouraging me to attain even higher states of consciousness. Sometimes in my trance I encountered the same horrible demonic creatures...depicted by the images in Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, and other religious temples. It was a frightful experience, but the Brahmacharya explained that it was normal and urged me to pursue the quest for Self Realization. At times I experienced a sense of mystical unity with the universe. I was the universe, Lord of all, omnipotent, omnipresent. My instructors were excited at this. I was obviously a chosen vessel, destined for early success in the search for union with Brahman.

Aha! The quest for the Holy Grail of "Self Realization!" Also note that one cannot be "self-realized" without "teachers" to guide one on one's way — to what turns out to be Self Annihilation....

If you detect bitterness in my tone here, it is because I have already been through this swindle — in Benjamin Creme's "ashram" of New Age Religion, which is at least a bastardized form of Buddhism. Its transmission is entirely dependent on a great teacher. (That would be "Ben.")

Now to me, a great teacher is not one who tells you what to think; rather, he shows you where to look to find out for yourself. Call that my "Socratic bias."

Anyhoot, in my relation with "Ben," I was guided in a meditative technique, which itself involved a negation — the negation of thought. The idea was to completely silence the incessant internal dialogue of the mind, the constant "internal chatter," so to think of "nothing." As anyone who has ever tried this already knows, this is exceedingly difficult to do. But I found a way to "cheat" my way to this result: Just make the chakra called the Eye of the Buddha — located between and just above the eyebrows — "buzz." Just pay attention to the "buzz," and thought disappears....

And there were marked physiological consequences of this technique which I won't get into here....

This induced state of non-thought supposedly translates the mental state into a condition of deep rest, connecting the meditator to the Deep Mind of the Universe — and is also said to be physiologically beneficial in terms of reduced stress, better cardiovascular performance, "increased EEG coherence," increased IQ, etc., etc.

In short, it's finally "all about me, me, me" and "my" personal "spiritual" advancement. Just as the quest for "self-realization" is relentlessly focused on "me, me, me." But it seems to me the last thing in the world that one learns from such an exercise is a sense of Dharma (duty) and compassion for one's fellow human beings. My finding, based on direct experience: Such doctrines promote the exercise of unremitting, narcissistic, self-preoccupation.

Just some thoughts, for what they're worth....

Than you so very much, dear sister in Christ, for your splendid essays on this subject!

Gospel of Thomas Saying 1 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings. Nag Hammadi Coptic Text Gospel of Thomas Coptic Text BLATZ (1) And he said: He who shall find the interpretation of these words shall not taste of death. LAYTON (1) And he said, "Whoever finds the meaning of these sayings will not taste death." DORESSE [1.] And he said: "Whoever penetrates the meaning of these words will not taste death!" Oxyrhynchus Greek Fragment Gospel of Thomas Greek Text DORESSE - Oxyrhynchus And he said: ["Whoever penetrates the mea]ning of these words will not taste [death!"] ATTRIDGE - Oxyrhynchus (1) And he said, "[Whoever finds the interpretation] of these sayings will not experience [death]." Funk's Parallels POxy654 1, GThom 111, John 8:48-59. Visitor Comments These sayings are fasinating! Some are difficult to understand, but if you are truly interested in the words of Jesus, then I believe we may have found them. - Emily Jackson It seems that this opening statement says it all. If these are the accurate, and only historical, sayings of Jesus then the mode in which we percieve them is lost to history. Because it stands to reason that if Jesus only taught for a few years before he was killed, then it is unlikly that those around him understood the subtlety of his awareness, hence the current state of christendom. However one might defer to an investigation of the Buddha Dharma in which to gain access and the ability to decode this text. - Whoda Buddha Funk and Hoover note to the right that "he" could refer either to Jesus or to the writer of the gospel. The ambiguity dissolves if Jesus was the writer. The rather subtle literary suggestion is that Jesus was the writer. He was, in fact, an excellent writer, which I hope students of this gospel will soon appreciate. - Simon Magus The statement is made with the authority of a Knower, not a mere scribe. Jesus is saying that to truly understand what he is showing will shatter the illusion of separation and death. - A Brother Death is not to be taken literally, but simply a typical gnostic way of showing spiritual stagnation or degradation. Appealing as it may appear, this verse does not promise immortality. - pilgrim Understanding the biblical interpretation of Jesus' words supports the notion of subtlety in his choise of language. The dynamic nature of his simplistic teachings is thus implicit. Why then, do so many scholars and sheep take his words at face face value and not consider that there is more in his teaching than is presented in his words. It is important then, to consider what Brother and Pilgrim have to say. "Death" is not to be considered the physical separation of bady and soul, but the spiritual deterioration. Therefore, those who discover the interpretation of this passage will not find themselves lacking in spirituality. Jesus' words, if considered in this light, gives power to the individual. If that is so, then the structure of The Church then begins to decay. it is no wonder why the Vatican has branded this gospel as heretical. We have been shown that we do not need an interpreter, so cut out the middle-man. - taurus Hoo do we ever need a middle man. The best scholars are hard pressed to properly interpret this stuff, and the amateurs don't stand a chance. To suppose that the sayings of Jesus evolved from mystical to pragmatic is pretty far fetched; the synoptic gospels generally portray a Jesus who is practical to perfection. These "heretical" gospels depict an esoteric mystic who would have found it pretty difficult to gather a following in the real world; i.e., these are the words of an invented Jesus, not the real one--not entirely without value for studying the history of the teachings of Jesus, but definitely of inferior quality to that of the canonized gospels, which were selected by much better thinkers than the gnostics. - BW Jesus is saying that the word must not be taken at face value, but that the inner meaning must be found through implied deep questioning, and that those who find the inner meaning will not taste death. There is no mention of a middle man. - devaram I disagree with BW. The gospels are straight forward and easy to understand--no middle man needed. They are no more enigmatic than the words of Frost or Keller, and in fact much easier to decipher than most modern poets. By your line of thinking, we must assume the gospels were meant for only those who were highly educated, but in fact the gospels were intended for the relatively uneducated masses, as evidenced by their simplistic linguistics. - intheknow Jesus did not mean that you or I would not suffer physical death. He meant that through study and practice (meditation, fasting, prayer) you can discover your spiritual essence. Further searching, study, and practice would lead to discovery of joining with that spiritual essence. The discovery and learning how to join with that essence means that you and I do not suffer spiritual death, but are aware of how our spiritual essence continues on past physical death. - AG Scholarly Quotes Marvin Meyer quotes Sirach 39:1-3 as a parallel: "But one who devotes one's soul and studies the law of the Most High will seek out the wisdom of all the ancients and will be concerned with prophecies. That person will keep in mind the discourse of reputable men and will go into the subtleties of parables. That person will seek out the hidden things of proverbs and will be occupied with the enigmas of parables." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 68) F. F. Bruce writes: "This confirms the impression made by the preamble, that the deeper interpretation of the sayings, not their surface meaning, pointed the way of salvation to initiates. The saying is quite similar to John 8.51, where Jesus says, 'If any one keeps my word, he will never see death' - a statement which is taken up and repeated by his interlocutors in the form: 'If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death' (verse 52). But 'keep my word' means basically 'obey my commandment', not 'find its interpretation' - the intention of the Fourth Gospel is essentially ethical, whereas that in the Gospel of Thomas is mainly intellectual." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 113) Funk and Hoover write: "It is not altogether clear that this saying should be considered a saying of Jesus. The pronoun 'he' could refer either to Jesus or the ostensible compiler of the sayings, Didymos Judas Thomas. At any rate, it refers to the collection of sayings comprising this gospel, and this gospel could not have been known to Jesus. Furthermore, the final line ('not taste death') is a recurring theme in Thomas (18:3; 19:4; 85:2; 111:2) and therefore probably reflects the editorial interest of the compiler." (The Five Gospels, p. 471) If you like the site, please buy the CD to support its work and get bonus stuff! Copyright 2012 Peter Kirby . See the Gospel of Thomas Bibliography & Credits. Gospel of Thomas Saying 1 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home -

Gospel of Thomas Saying 2 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings. Nag Hammadi Coptic Text Gospel of Thomas Coptic Text BLATZ (2) Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds; and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will be amazed, and he will reign over the All. LAYTON (2) Jesus said, "Let one who seeks not stop seeking until that person finds; and upon finding, the person will be disturbed; and being disturbed, will be astounded; and will reign over the entirety." DORESSE 1 [2]. Jesus says: "Let him who seeks cease not to seek until he finds: when he finds he will be astonished; and when he is astonished he will wonder, and will reign over the universe!" Oxyrhynchus Greek Fragment Gospel of Thomas Greek Text DORESSE - Oxyrhynchus [Jesus says:] "Let him who see[ks] cease not [to seek until he] finds: when he finds, [he will wonder; and when he wond]ers, he will reign, and [reigning, he will have r]est!" ATTRIDGE - Oxyrhynchus (2) [Jesus said], "Let him who seeks continue [seeking until] he finds. When he finds, [he will be amazed. And] when he becomes [amazed], he will rule. And [once he has ruled], he will [attain rest]." Funk's Parallels POxy654 2, GThom 92:1, GThom 94, Luke 11:9-13, Matt 7:7-11, Matt 21:18-22, John 14:12-14, John 15:16-17, John 16:20-28, Mark 11:20-25, GHeb 4a, GHeb 4b, DialSav 9-12, DialSav 20, DialSav 79-80. Visitor Comments When you speak (pray) to God~Ultimate Reality, never cease to listen for the answer coming back. You are all capable of hearing (or otherwise realizing) this answer upon truly listening. You will be amazed at what you are told. Eventually when you learn your true place in the scheme of things you will have a degree of control over your reality by virtue of understanding its true nature. This will enable you to follow your planned path of life in a more peaceful and accepting manner. You will have learned that life is verily a dream and God is the dreamer, dreaming you. - active-mystic One who strives for the best above all else will one day learn that all he has strived for has in the end rotted away. When he realizes this he is disgusted that he hasn't spend more time with his family or had more fun. Then he is astounded that he can still do all these things. So he does. The moral of the story is, love and be loved in return, lay your heart out on the line for a gamble. When you can learn to do this then life will be happy. - puzzled, but clearer When you seek and find the child within, you will be most profoundly disturbed by the horror of your upbringing. You will marvel at the beauty of your innate self and, in time you will become lord and servant of yourself. - Rodney I have noticed that quite a few of the interpretations of these sayings which seem to make sense include a reference to the Gospel of Thomas itself. Applying this idea to this saying, I get: Let one who seeks the meaning of the Gospel of Thomas not stop seeking until one finds. When one finds, one will be disturbed. When one is disturbed, one will marvel, and will reign over all. - Ruthie The minds of men have been temporarily lost from God (the "fall"), but when we seek to rejoin from that which we think we separated from (the Mind of God)Jesus tells us to persevere, and that by doing so we will come to see that the world that we thought was real isn't (an initially disturbing, troubling event for us), but as we reunite with God we will be truely amazed, and being One once again with All That Is we will "rule" All That Is. - A Brother Continue in your quest until you find. When you find [succeed] you will be changed [reborn] and see everything differently. A technical injunction - Thief37 There is an old saying in science that "The more I know, the more I learn I don't know." The Gospel writer is telling us that Jesus understood eternity in this way. Seek an answer, don't give up; you will find one. However, when you do, you will be astonished to learn that the answer you seek is not an end in and of itself; it only leads you to ten more questions; seek those answers; for each answer there is ten more questions and on and on and on. Eventually, you will get it--there is no end to questions, to life, to God. To know this truly inspires wonder. - Crimson731 Rhizoid is correct. Also as you seek to destroy the ego, realizations of how the world is and how many people are blind to truth will be "disturbed" then as you further seek you understand the nature of duality then you reign. - bravenewmind Never stop seeking because you will find the answers, but the answers will trouble you because they will show you the illusions under which you have conducted your life in the past. Once the veil lifts off your eyes you will begin to see the wonder of the universe and be angry that so many things had been hidden from us by individuals in the past who destroyed the keys. But the messages still resound loudly to anyone who wishes to listen. And then you will reign over the world because the world is an illusion. - daisy When the seeker has at last attained unto a better understanding of God, he will be troubled. What he finds in God will not be what he had been expecting, what he had been taught to look for. By seeking for God on his own he found the truth, and from that truth comes power, and, at least according to the Greek texts, to spiritual peace. - Kevin Answer: Jesus meant that you must be persistent in your meditation, fasting, and prayer. You then stumble into experiences that are beyond explanation with words. Jesus does not speak to the higher states of consciousness that present themselves with such diligent persistent work. Jesus speaks to the astounded surprises, etched with question and disbelief. How continued persistence study and practice brings eventual communion with your spiritual essence. Continued work leads to your discovering spiritual essence is inside you, outside you, and all around you. That you are spiritually connected with everything. The end portion of this statement of "Reign over everything, universe" was a misunderstanding that Jesus had of achieving the Unity consciousness with his inner spiritual essence. Without a teacher to point out that unity consciousness was not being god and that he was still a physical being experiencing this astounding state. He misunderstood this state. Everyone back then was expecting the messiah and this unity consciousness under these Jewish expectations would certainly bewilder and confuse Jesus as to who he really was. - AG When you understand the truth about why you experience your own existence, you become astonished because you realize that death is not absolute. At the same time you become disturbed because the truth also threatens the preconceptions of your ego. When you transcend these preconceptions, liberation of the spirit occurs. - Rhizoid Scholarly Quotes Marvin Meyer quotes two parallel passages in the Book of Thomas the Contender (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, pp. 68-69). The first: "[Fortunate is] the wise person who has [sought truth, and] when it has been found, has rested upon it for ever, and has not been afraid of those who wish to trouble the wise person." (Book of Thomas 140,41 - 141,2) The second: "Watch and pray. . . . And when you pray, you will find rest. . . . For when you leave the pains and the passions of the body, you will receive rest from the Good One, and you will rule with the king, you united with him and he united with you, from now on, for ever and ever." (Book of Thomas 145,8-16) A somewhat similar statement is found from Clement of Alexandria: "Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal." (Instructor, 1.6.26.1) Funk and Hoover write: "Thom 2:2-4 is a gnostic expansion: the gnostic quest leads to being disturbed, which causes one to marvel, and that ends in reigning. The Greek fragment of this same verse adds a fifth stage: the reign of the gnostic results in 'rest,' which is the gnostic catchword for salvation. Gnostic insight into the 'real world,' as opposed to the world of appearances, is what brings all this about. The term 'rest' is employed in the book of Revelation, on the other hand, for future salvation: those who die in the Lord 'may rest from their labors' (Rev 14:13)." (The Five Gospels, p. 471) Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "'Rest' is mentioned not in the Coptic text but in the Greek fragment; but 'rest' or 'repose' occurs in Sayings 51, 52, 60, 61, 86, and 90. It is found in the Gospel of the Hebrews (Clement of Alexandria, Strom., 2, 45, 5; 5, 96, 3), from which this saying is taken; presumably the author of Thomas changed the saying in order to lay emphasis on the idea of becoming a king. Compare 2 Timothy 2:11-12: 'Trustworthy is the saying, "If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we have endured, we shall reign with him.' The difference, once more, is between the action of the Christian and the knowing of the Gnostic." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 120) J. D. Crossan writes: "The restoration of the Greek text in Oxy P 654, of which only the first half of each line is extant, is relatively secure due to its citation by Clement of Alexandria (Fitzmyer, 1974:372-373; Hofius: 27; Marcovich: 56). In form it is a quadruple-stich saying climactically word-linked from one stich to the next: seeks/finds//finds/astounded//astounded/reign//reigned/rest (see Hennecke and Schneemelcher: 1.164)." (In Fragments, pp. 99-100) J. D. Crossan writes: "On the other hand, the version in Gos. Thom. 2 breaks both the form and content of that Greek version: seeks/finds//finds/troubled//troubled/astonished// -- / reign. The result is that the Coptic version climaxes with "rule" while the Greek text climaxes with "rest" (see Bammel, 1969). It is fairly certain that the Greek version is more original, but it is difficult to explain the Coptic deviation since 'rest' is one of Thomas's major themes (Vielhauer, 1964:297). The best explanation is probably some form of misreading of his Greek original by the Coptic translator (see Marcovich: 57; or Menard, 1975:79)." (In Fragments, p. 100) If you like the site, please buy the CD to support its work and get bonus stuff! Copyright 2012 Peter Kirby . See the Gospel of Thomas Bibliography & Credits. Gospel of Thomas Saying 2 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next