Closing the 'free will' loophole: Using distant quasars to test Bell's theorem

That is an awful lot to reply to. My friend is a Buddhist. He is my teacher.

Get a better teacher. Try Plato or Aristotle.

Nuff said for now.

Gee, thanks. I think I’m doing fine.

With respect to the idea that time is an illusion, please listen to betty, she steers you in the right direction. Time is an illusion, or maya, is a central teaching within the occult mystical worldview. All astral plane and/or cosmic circuit riders---Hermetic magicians, Eastern gurus, New Age shamans, sorcerers, etc---teach this idea because by "going within" and mastering the occult rituals necessary for traveling the cosmic circuit they achieve a sense of timelessness and oneness (monism).

The astral plane refers to the Oroboros. As a powerful occult symbol, the Ouroboros is the primal energy field variously known as Chaos, Nu, Brahman and Quantum Void by certain modern pantheist-oriented physicists. This primal energy field is Herme's "above." Some researchers of antiquity believe that Hermes was either Ham or his son Cush

From the time of the ancient Egyptian Orphites (snake worshippers) in the land of Ham, the Oroboros has meant the seething power, creative and/or evolutionary impulse or energy of the serpent figuratively depicted as either a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. The serpent's body is often depicted as the Great Chain of Being and Cosmic Tree of Life.

In modern New Age thought for example, the Ouroboros 'above' corresponds to a number of different astral planes and sub-planes comprising the timeless habitations,

"(of all) supernatural entities, the locale of gods and demons, the void where the thoughtforms dwell, the region inhabited by spirits of the air and other elements, and the various heavens and hells with their angelic and demonic hosts....With the help of ritual procedures, trained persons believe that they can 'rise on the planes,' and experience these regions in full awareness." ("Beyond the Body: The Human Double and the Astral planes, Benjamin Walker, 1974, pp. 117-8)

The Ouroboros is well-known around the world in its' many occult traditions:

"References to this reality are the Dreaming of the Australian Aborigines, the Spirit-world of Shamanism, the Duart of the ancient Egyptians, the Bardo (Intermediate State) of the Tibetans, the Imaginal world of Islamic Esotericism – e.g. the Barzakh (Interworld) or of Suhrawardi and the Mithal (Imaginal realm) of Ibn Arabi – the Universe of Asiyah of some Kabbalists, or of Yetzirah according to others. Other descriptions are the Nervo degree of the Physical State of Theon, the Astral or 2nd Prakritic plane (corresponding to the Linga Sharira or Subtle or Astral body) and the Kama (Desire-Plane) of Blavatsky, the Astral Plane of the Adyar school of Theosophy and of popular occultism, Rudolf Steiner's "Soul World"; and the Vital and Subtle Physical described by Sri Aurobindo and Mirra. These are just a few of the innumerable descriptions of this plane of existence." (The Astral Plane, kheper.net)

Increasingly, modern 'atheist' science (materialism) is sliding into occult pantheism. Modern multiverse theories for example, are grounded in astral plane speculations thus are not true science but occult science. In our time we desperately need to discern between true science, the search for what is true and real, and false science.

The Apostle Paul speaks not of cosmic trees, astral planes and the beings supposedly existing there but of fallen angels, the "spirits of wickedness under the heavens" (Eph. 6:12) and their chief, "the prince of the powers of the air." (Eph. 2:2)

According to Paul, fallen angels are dispersed in a multitude throughout the whole blue expanse of sky which is visible to us – the lower heaven, the dwelling place for the host of fallen angels who have been cast down from the supernatural heaven outside of the space/time dimension.

This means that in esoteric multiverse theories and occult cosmic tree of life conceptions, the whole blue expanse of sky under the supernatural heaven where fallen angels dwell is the Ouroboros/cosmic tree 'above' consisting of astral planes and sub-planes connected by the great chain of being up which the initiate spiritually ascends (evolves) by way of ritual (i.e., transcendental meditation, mind-altering drugs) as he traverses the occult Path of Life or Western Magical Way to achieve a sense of timelessness, oneness, divine status and psychic powers.

What she said was the most arrogant thing anyone has ever said to me in my 59 years of life.

You know even less about Buddhism than she does but you’re pretty darned sure of yourself aren’t you?

I know enough about Buddhism to know that there's nothing there. No God, no nothing. Just an energy field.

Now rather than react with more huffing and puffing, why don't you turn to the Indian philosopher Vishal Mangalwadi for clarification and insight with respect to Buddhism?

Mangalwadi left Eastern mystical systems behind for Christianity. You ought to ask yourself why. Visit his website: http://www.revelationmovement.com/about/

I have a teacher and have been a student and practitioner for 16 years. Why would I look to someone else for knowledge of something I already know intimately? Everything the two of you have said about Buddhism is utter crap. Not one correct view. You sound like idiots.

However the idea that Buddhism teaches that this reality is entirely an illusion and has no existence isn't really correct. It's rather difficult to explain but its real meaning is that this reality has "no abiding existence." ie nothing is permanent.... That is easy to see if you consider how many cells in your body are dying, coming into existence and otherwise changing in every moment. So the 'you' that existed two minutes ago no longer exists. What you are in this moment is different than what you were before and what you will be.

I am heartly sorry if I offended you, TigersEye. Please accept my apology.

So you are a Buddhist. I am a Christian.

WRT the above italics, I would say that there is something permanent about a human being, even though bodily, everything is constantly changing — "So the 'you' that existed two minutes ago no longer exists," as you truly say. That permanent thing is the soul, which is eternal and not susceptible of change. As far as I can tell, Buddhism has no doctrine of the soul, and thus no solid basis for a concept of personality, or personhood. (Which is more than just "ego" or "intellect.")

Consider the reason we know that the physical world is constantly changing, at micro- and macroscopic levels — science has shown us this. Science works through the presupposition that the natural world is "lawful." Though matter is constantly in flux, the forms it takes are constrained by natural laws that do not change. Without this presupposition, science would be impossible, an exercise in futility.

You wrote:

It is a staple of developing wisdom and compassion in the basic practice of Dharma to recognize the importance of knowledge passed down from one's parents and from the many generations of people who have come before us building a body of knowledge one step at a time that has progressed from starting a fire with a bow and drill to designing space shuttles and nuclear reactors.

IMHO (FWIW), the precepts of Buddhism comport with "starting a fire with a bow and drill." But there's nothing in Buddhism that could account for progress from there to "designing space shuttles and nuclear reactors."

Science is the product of Western civilization, which is based on ancient Hellas — preeminently on Aristotle — and (arguably) the Holy Scriptures. There was no natural science in the East until it came into contact with the West.

In short, Buddhism didn't teach you about "cells." And one does not have to be a Buddhist to recognize the impermanence of all things physical in this world.

In the end, it appears to me that Christianity is "realist," and rational. Buddhism is "idealist," a sort of withdrawal from the "pain" of the human condition....

Just some thoughts, for what they're worth to you. Thank you so much for writing!

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27, KJB

For fifteen hundred years, Christendom and then later Protestant America, had followed St. Augustine (AD 354-430) in affirming that as all men are the spiritual image-bearers of the transcendent Triune God then it logically follows that each person is a trinity of being — of soul, spirit, and body:

"The essence of the human is not the body, but the soul. It is the soul alone that God made in his own image and the soul that he loves....For the sake of the soul...the Son of God came into the world...." (Incomplete Work on Matthew, Homily 25, Ancient Christian Devotional, Oden and Crosby, p. 153)

In Biblical thought, the body is inert matter organized and vitalized by the soul. A human life is a soul which informs inert matter, thus a body without a soul is no more than a disorganized mass of cells that would quickly deconstruct, said Pastor Louis Pernot in a sermon delivered at the Temple de l'Etoile in Paris. ("Body, Mind, and Soul," Nov. 28, 2010)

The noblest part of the soul is spirit (the heart). Spirit is immortal and self-aware. It can will and think and is freely responsible for what it thinks, wills, and does.

Spirit is the unique property that distinguishes soul from matter. In Biblical thought, spirit allows man to spiritually transcend the natural dimension in order to access the supernatural dimension, thereby allowing him to enter into a personal relationship with the Spirit of God. Through this relationship, man's conscience is cleansed over time, thus enabling him to more perfectly orient the manner of his existence in this world in preparation for eternity.

In Christian thought, a person is a spirit and personality is the total individuality of the spirit. Without spirit there is no person.

Pastor Pernot notes that the key to individual liberty in the temporal sphere is man's spiritual liberty contrasted against a genetically programmed animal-like orientation.

Animals do not have spirits, which are linked to intelligence, imagination, sensitivity, self-consciousness, reflection and the capacity for truth and moral goodness.

A person is uniquely free because he can spiritually transcend matter to access the supernatural dimension as Paul affirms:

"Now the Lord is Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)

Buddhism

Jesus to Buddha,

"....you took God away from them (and) your espousal of an absence of self is the most unique and fearsome claim you made...You turned from Hinduism because it said there was an essential self, which they called the atman." (The Lotus and the Cross: Jesus Talks with Buddha, Ravi Zacharias, pp.59, 67)

If there is no living, personal God, then it logically follows that there is no source for life, consciousness, soul, spirit and will, or for human dignity, worth, liberty, and property. Without God the Father unalienable (God-given) rights are meaningless. If man is not God's spiritual image-bearer, then he is less than nothing, a conclusion Buddha reached long before Jesus Christ walked this earth:

"Six centuries before Jesus Christ, the Buddha already knew that if God does not exist, then the human self cannot exist either......Therefore, he deconstructed the Hindu idea of the soul. When one starts peeling the onion skin of one's psyche, he discovers that there is no solid core at the center of one's being. Your sense of self is an illusion. Reality is nonself (anatman). You don't exist. Liberation, the Buddha taught, is realizing the unreality of your existence." (The Book That Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization, Vishal Mangalwadi, p. 6)

Former guru Rabindranath R. Maharaj, now a committed follower of Jesus Christ, describes his former transcendental meditation ritual and its' terrifying consequences:

"Nothing was more important than our daily transcendental meditation, the heart of Yoga, which Krishna advocated as the surest way to eternal Bliss. But it could also be dangerous. Frightening psychic experiences awaited the...meditator, similar to a bad trip on drugs. Demons described in the Vedas had been known to take possession of some Yogis. Kundalini power, said to be coiled like a serpent at the base of the spine, could produce ecstatic experiences when released in deep meditation — or...it could do great mental and bodily harm. The line between ecstasy and horror was very fine...During daily meditation I began to have visions of psychedelic colors, to hear unearthly music, and to visit exotic planets where the gods conversed with me, encouraging me to attain even higher states of consciousness. Sometimes in my trance I encountered the same horrible demonic creatures...depicted by the images in Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, and other religious temples. It was a frightful experience, but the Brahmacharya explained that it was normal and urged me to pursue the quest for Self Realization. At times I experienced a sense of mystical unity with the universe. I was the universe, Lord of all, omnipotent, omnipresent. My instructors were excited at this. I was obviously a chosen vessel, destined for early success in the search for union with Brahman. The Forces that had guided my father were now guiding me." (Death of a Guru, Rabindranath R. Maharaj, pp. 56-57)

"No matter how fulfilling life becomes, there are always certain regrets when one looks back. My deepest sense of loss involves my father. So much has happened since his death. I often wonder what it would be like to share it all with him, and what his reaction would be.

We never shared anything in our lives. Because of vows he had taken before I was born, not once did he ever speak to me or pay me the slightest heed. Just two words from him would have made me unspeakably happy. How I wanted to hear him say, "Rabi. Son." Just once. But he never did.

For eight long years he uttered not a word. The trancelike condition he had achieved is called in the East a state of higher consciousness and can be attained only through deep meditation.

"Why is Father that way?" I would ask my mother, still too young to understand. "He is someone very special -- the greatest man you could have for a father," she would reply. "He is seeking the true Self that lies within us all, the One Being, of which there is no other. And that's what you are too, Rabi."

Father had set an example, achieved wide acclaim, and earned the worship of many, and it was inevitable that upon his death his mantle would fall upon me. I had never imagined, however, that I would still be so young when this fateful day arrived.

When father died I felt I had lost everything. Though I had scarcely known him as my father, he had been my inspiration -- a god -- and now he was dead.

At his funeral, my father's stiff body was placed on a great pile of firewood. The thought of his body being sacrificed to Agni, the god of fire, added a new dimension of mystery to the bewilderment and deep sense of loss that already overwhelmed me.

As the flames engulfed him, it was impossible to suppress the anguish I felt. "Mommy!" I screamed. "Mommy!" If she heard me above the roar of sparks and fire, she made no indication. A true Hindu, she found strength to follow the teaching of Krishna: she would mourn neither the living nor the dead. Not once did she cry as the flames consumed my father.

---------

One day a friend of my cousin Shanti, whose name was Molli, came by to visit. She asked me about whether I found Hinduism fulfilling. Trying to hide my emptiness, I lied and told her I was very happy and that my religion was the Truth. She listened patiently to my pompous and sometimes arrogant pronouncements. Without arguing, she exposed my emptiness gently with politely phrased questions.

She told me that Jesus had brought her close to God. She also said that God is a God of love and that He desires us to be close to Him. As appealing as this sounded to me, I stubbornly resisted, not willing to surrender my Hindu roots.

Still, I found myself asking, "What makes you so happy? You must have been doing a lot of meditation."

"I used to," Molli responded, "but not any more. Jesus has given me a peace and joy that I never knew before." Then she said, "Rabi, you don't seem very happy. Are you?"

I lowered my voice: "I'm not happy. I wish I had your joy."

Was I saying this?

"My joy is because my sins are forgiven," said Molli. "Peace and joy come from Christ, through really knowing Him."

We continued talking for half a day, unaware of how the time had passed. I wanted her peace and joy, but I was absolutely resolved that I wasn't going to give up any part of my religion.

As she was leaving, she said: "Before you go to bed tonight, Rabi, please get on your knees and ask God to show you the Truth -- and I'll be praying for you." With a wave of her hand she was gone.

Pride demanded that I reject everything Molli had said, but I was too desperate to save face any longer. I fell to my knees, conscious that I was giving in to her request.

"God, the true God and Creator, please show me the truth!" Something inside me snapped. For the first time in my life, I felt I had really prayed and gotten through -- not to some impersonal Force, but to the true God who loves and cares. Too tired to think any longer, I crawled into bed and fell asleep almost instantly.

Soon after, my cousin Krishna invited me to a Christian meeting. I again surprised myself by responding: "Why not?"

On our way there, Krishna and I were joined by Ramkair, a new acquaintance of his. "Do you know anything about this meeting?" I asked him, anxious to get some advance information.

"A little," he replied. "I became a Christian recently." "Tell me," I said eagerly. "Did Jesus really change your life?" Ramkair smiled broadly. "He sure did! Everything is different."

"It's really true, Rab!" added Krishna enthusiastically. "I've become a Christian too -- just a few days ago."

The preacher's sermon was based on Psalm 23, and the words, "The Lord is my shepherd," made my heart leap. After expounding the Psalm, the preacher said: "Jesus wants to be your Shepherd. Have you heard His voice speaking to your heart? Why not open your heart to Him now? Don't wait until tomorrow -- that may be too late!" The preacher seemed to be speaking directly to me. I could delay no longer.

I quickly knelt in front of him. He smiled and asked if anyone else wanted to receive Jesus. No one stirred. Then he asked the Christians to come forward and pray with me. Several did, kneeling beside me. For years Hindus had bowed before me -- and now I was kneeling before a Christian.

Aloud I repeated after him a prayer inviting Jesus into my heart. When the preacher said, "Amen," he suggested I pray in my own words. Quietly, choking with emotion, I began: "Lord Jesus, I've never studied the Bible, but I've heard that you died for my sins at Calvary so I could be forgiven and reconciled to God. Please forgive me all my sins. Come into my heart!"

Before I finished, I knew that Jesus wasn't just another one of several million gods. He was the God for whom I had hungered. He Himself was the Creator. Yet, He loved me enough to become a man and die for my sins. With that realization, tons of darkness seemed to lift and a brilliant light flooded my soul.

After arriving home, Krishna and I found the entire family waiting up for us, apparently having heard what had happened. "I asked Jesus into my life tonight!" I exclaimed happily, as I looked from one to another of those startled faces. "It's glorious. I can't tell you how much he means to me already."

Some in my family seemed wounded and bewildered; others seemed happy for me. But before it was all over with, thirteen of us had ended up giving our hearts to Jesus! It was incredible.

The following day I walked resolutely into the prayer room with Krishna. Together we carried everything out into the yard: idols, Hindu scriptures, and religious paraphernalia. We wanted to rid ourselves of every tie with the past and with the powers of darkness that had blinded and enslaved us for so long.

When everything had been piled on the rubbish heap, we set it on fire and watched the flames consume our past. The tiny figures we once feared as gods were turning to ashes. We hugged one another and offered thanks to the Son of God who had died to set us free.

I found my thoughts going back to my father's cremation nearly eight years before. In contrast to our new found joy, that scene had aroused inconsolable grief. My father's body had been offered to the very same false gods who now lay in smoldering fragments before me. It seemed unbelievable that I should be participating with great joy in the utter destruction of that which represented all I had once believed in so fanatically.

In a sense this was my cremation ceremony -- the end of the person I had once been...the death of a guru. The old Rabi Maharaj had died in Christ. And out of that grave a new Rabi had risen in whom Christ was now living.

Death of a Guru http://www.soughtaftermedia.com/death-of-a-guru.html

Stop posting that Hindu crap to me.

WRT the above italics, I would say that there is something permanent about a human being, even though bodily, everything is constantly changing — "So the 'you' that existed two minutes ago no longer exists," as you truly say. That permanent thing is the soul, which is eternal and not susceptible of change.

So very true, dearest sister in Christ!

I understand every molecule in a human's body is replaced at least once every seven years and so we physically are quite literally not the same physical thing we used to be. But our being, identity or soul continues nonetheless, physical body or not.

Thank you so very much for your insights!

What a glorious testimony! Thank you for sharing that, dear sister in Christ, and thank you for your insights.

Yes AG, Rabi’s testimony is indeed glorious to all people who earnestly seek Truth. But to those who do not, it is despised, rejected, ridiculed, even hated. When Truth is freely given to such as these, they inevitably give expression to the darkness of their spirit by pouring scorn, ridicule and cursing upon the human bearer of this precious, life-giving gift, thereby re-crucifying the One Who is the Truth, the Way and the Life.

Truly I understand your frustration, dear sister in Christ!

But "ears to hear" are a gift of God. If signs and reasoning were enough, the Hebrews (and Egyptians, btw) would have all believed:

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

Ditto for the Greeks:

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; - I Cor 22:23

Loving God, believing Him and trusting Him is the best we can do. We testify but the increase is His.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. - I Cor 3:7

God's Name is I AM.

"Stop posting that Hindu crap to me."

Based on your comment, I went back and read #50. I believe you totally missed the point of Spirited's comment. What I read was the personal testimony of a Hindu guru who found Christ as his Saviour -- and who burned all his Hindu idols.

The only "Hindu crap" I saw there was near the beginning, and was presented in the most negative way possible.

I strongly recommend that you go back and re-read Spirited's entire # 50 again -- all the way to the "punchline" at the end.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IMO, you owe Spirited Irish an apology...

I agree, dear Sister in Christ, and refer you to my # 56...

"Six centuries before Jesus Christ, the Buddha already knew that if God does not exist, then the human self cannot exist either....Therefore, he deconstructed the Hindu idea of the soul. When one starts peeling the onion skin of one's psyche, he discovers that there is no solid core at the center of one's being. Your sense of self is an illusion. Reality is nonself (anatman). You don't exist. Liberation, the Buddha taught, is realizing the unreality of your existence."

Vishal Mangalwadi's observation rings true to me. If it is true, then somebody — TigersEye??? — please explain to me in what way Buddhism is anything other than an exercise in nihilism?

Dear spirited, in your splendid Post 50, you quoted Rabindranath R. Maharaj as follows:

During daily meditation I began to have visions of psychedelic colors, to hear unearthly music, and to visit exotic planets where the gods conversed with me, encouraging me to attain even higher states of consciousness. Sometimes in my trance I encountered the same horrible demonic creatures...depicted by the images in Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, and other religious temples. It was a frightful experience, but the Brahmacharya explained that it was normal and urged me to pursue the quest for Self Realization. At times I experienced a sense of mystical unity with the universe. I was the universe, Lord of all, omnipotent, omnipresent. My instructors were excited at this. I was obviously a chosen vessel, destined for early success in the search for union with Brahman.

Aha! The quest for the Holy Grail of "Self Realization!" Also note that one cannot be "self-realized" without "teachers" to guide one on one's way — to what turns out to be Self Annihilation....

If you detect bitterness in my tone here, it is because I have already been through this swindle — in Benjamin Creme's "ashram" of New Age Religion, which is at least a bastardized form of Buddhism. Its transmission is entirely dependent on a great teacher. (That would be "Ben.")

Now to me, a great teacher is not one who tells you what to think; rather, he shows you where to look to find out for yourself. Call that my "Socratic bias."

Anyhoot, in my relation with "Ben," I was guided in a meditative technique, which itself involved a negation — the negation of thought. The idea was to completely silence the incessant internal dialogue of the mind, the constant "internal chatter," so to think of "nothing." As anyone who has ever tried this already knows, this is exceedingly difficult to do. But I found a way to "cheat" my way to this result: Just make the chakra called the Eye of the Buddha — located between and just above the eyebrows — "buzz." Just pay attention to the "buzz," and thought disappears....

And there were marked physiological consequences of this technique which I won't get into here....

This induced state of non-thought supposedly translates the mental state into a condition of deep rest, connecting the meditator to the Deep Mind of the Universe — and is also said to be physiologically beneficial in terms of reduced stress, better cardiovascular performance, "increased EEG coherence," increased IQ, etc., etc.

In short, it's finally "all about me, me, me" and "my" personal "spiritual" advancement. Just as the quest for "self-realization" is relentlessly focused on "me, me, me." But it seems to me the last thing in the world that one learns from such an exercise is a sense of Dharma (duty) and compassion for one's fellow human beings. My finding, based on direct experience: Such doctrines promote the exercise of unremitting, narcissistic, self-preoccupation.

Just some thoughts, for what they're worth....

Than you so very much, dear sister in Christ, for your splendid essays on this subject!

Loving God, believing Him and trusting Him is the best we can do. We testify but the increase is His.

AMEN!!! dearest sister in Christ!

Truly, God's Name is I AM. The Greeks would say: He is the eternal Ground of Being of all that exists, including you and me.

Gospel of Thomas Saying 1 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings. Nag Hammadi Coptic Text Gospel of Thomas Coptic Text BLATZ (1) And he said: He who shall find the interpretation of these words shall not taste of death. LAYTON (1) And he said, "Whoever finds the meaning of these sayings will not taste death." DORESSE [1.] And he said: "Whoever penetrates the meaning of these words will not taste death!" Oxyrhynchus Greek Fragment Gospel of Thomas Greek Text DORESSE - Oxyrhynchus And he said: ["Whoever penetrates the mea]ning of these words will not taste [death!"] ATTRIDGE - Oxyrhynchus (1) And he said, "[Whoever finds the interpretation] of these sayings will not experience [death]." Funk's Parallels POxy654 1, GThom 111, John 8:48-59. Visitor Comments These sayings are fasinating! Some are difficult to understand, but if you are truly interested in the words of Jesus, then I believe we may have found them. - Emily Jackson It seems that this opening statement says it all. If these are the accurate, and only historical, sayings of Jesus then the mode in which we percieve them is lost to history. Because it stands to reason that if Jesus only taught for a few years before he was killed, then it is unlikly that those around him understood the subtlety of his awareness, hence the current state of christendom. However one might defer to an investigation of the Buddha Dharma in which to gain access and the ability to decode this text. - Whoda Buddha Funk and Hoover note to the right that "he" could refer either to Jesus or to the writer of the gospel. The ambiguity dissolves if Jesus was the writer. The rather subtle literary suggestion is that Jesus was the writer. He was, in fact, an excellent writer, which I hope students of this gospel will soon appreciate. - Simon Magus The statement is made with the authority of a Knower, not a mere scribe. Jesus is saying that to truly understand what he is showing will shatter the illusion of separation and death. - A Brother Death is not to be taken literally, but simply a typical gnostic way of showing spiritual stagnation or degradation. Appealing as it may appear, this verse does not promise immortality. - pilgrim Understanding the biblical interpretation of Jesus' words supports the notion of subtlety in his choise of language. The dynamic nature of his simplistic teachings is thus implicit. Why then, do so many scholars and sheep take his words at face face value and not consider that there is more in his teaching than is presented in his words. It is important then, to consider what Brother and Pilgrim have to say. "Death" is not to be considered the physical separation of bady and soul, but the spiritual deterioration. Therefore, those who discover the interpretation of this passage will not find themselves lacking in spirituality. Jesus' words, if considered in this light, gives power to the individual. If that is so, then the structure of The Church then begins to decay. it is no wonder why the Vatican has branded this gospel as heretical. We have been shown that we do not need an interpreter, so cut out the middle-man. - taurus Hoo do we ever need a middle man. The best scholars are hard pressed to properly interpret this stuff, and the amateurs don't stand a chance. To suppose that the sayings of Jesus evolved from mystical to pragmatic is pretty far fetched; the synoptic gospels generally portray a Jesus who is practical to perfection. These "heretical" gospels depict an esoteric mystic who would have found it pretty difficult to gather a following in the real world; i.e., these are the words of an invented Jesus, not the real one--not entirely without value for studying the history of the teachings of Jesus, but definitely of inferior quality to that of the canonized gospels, which were selected by much better thinkers than the gnostics. - BW Jesus is saying that the word must not be taken at face value, but that the inner meaning must be found through implied deep questioning, and that those who find the inner meaning will not taste death. There is no mention of a middle man. - devaram I disagree with BW. The gospels are straight forward and easy to understand--no middle man needed. They are no more enigmatic than the words of Frost or Keller, and in fact much easier to decipher than most modern poets. By your line of thinking, we must assume the gospels were meant for only those who were highly educated, but in fact the gospels were intended for the relatively uneducated masses, as evidenced by their simplistic linguistics. - intheknow Jesus did not mean that you or I would not suffer physical death. He meant that through study and practice (meditation, fasting, prayer) you can discover your spiritual essence. Further searching, study, and practice would lead to discovery of joining with that spiritual essence. The discovery and learning how to join with that essence means that you and I do not suffer spiritual death, but are aware of how our spiritual essence continues on past physical death. - AG Scholarly Quotes Marvin Meyer quotes Sirach 39:1-3 as a parallel: "But one who devotes one's soul and studies the law of the Most High will seek out the wisdom of all the ancients and will be concerned with prophecies. That person will keep in mind the discourse of reputable men and will go into the subtleties of parables. That person will seek out the hidden things of proverbs and will be occupied with the enigmas of parables." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 68) F. F. Bruce writes: "This confirms the impression made by the preamble, that the deeper interpretation of the sayings, not their surface meaning, pointed the way of salvation to initiates. The saying is quite similar to John 8.51, where Jesus says, 'If any one keeps my word, he will never see death' - a statement which is taken up and repeated by his interlocutors in the form: 'If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death' (verse 52). But 'keep my word' means basically 'obey my commandment', not 'find its interpretation' - the intention of the Fourth Gospel is essentially ethical, whereas that in the Gospel of Thomas is mainly intellectual." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 113) Funk and Hoover write: "It is not altogether clear that this saying should be considered a saying of Jesus. The pronoun 'he' could refer either to Jesus or the ostensible compiler of the sayings, Didymos Judas Thomas. At any rate, it refers to the collection of sayings comprising this gospel, and this gospel could not have been known to Jesus. Furthermore, the final line ('not taste death') is a recurring theme in Thomas (18:3; 19:4; 85:2; 111:2) and therefore probably reflects the editorial interest of the compiler." (The Five Gospels, p. 471) If you like the site, please buy the CD to support its work and get bonus stuff! Copyright 2012 Peter Kirby . See the Gospel of Thomas Bibliography & Credits. Gospel of Thomas Saying 1 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home -

Gospel of Thomas Saying 2 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings. Nag Hammadi Coptic Text Gospel of Thomas Coptic Text BLATZ (2) Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds; and when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will be amazed, and he will reign over the All. LAYTON (2) Jesus said, "Let one who seeks not stop seeking until that person finds; and upon finding, the person will be disturbed; and being disturbed, will be astounded; and will reign over the entirety." DORESSE 1 [2]. Jesus says: "Let him who seeks cease not to seek until he finds: when he finds he will be astonished; and when he is astonished he will wonder, and will reign over the universe!" Oxyrhynchus Greek Fragment Gospel of Thomas Greek Text DORESSE - Oxyrhynchus [Jesus says:] "Let him who see[ks] cease not [to seek until he] finds: when he finds, [he will wonder; and when he wond]ers, he will reign, and [reigning, he will have r]est!" ATTRIDGE - Oxyrhynchus (2) [Jesus said], "Let him who seeks continue [seeking until] he finds. When he finds, [he will be amazed. And] when he becomes [amazed], he will rule. And [once he has ruled], he will [attain rest]." Funk's Parallels POxy654 2, GThom 92:1, GThom 94, Luke 11:9-13, Matt 7:7-11, Matt 21:18-22, John 14:12-14, John 15:16-17, John 16:20-28, Mark 11:20-25, GHeb 4a, GHeb 4b, DialSav 9-12, DialSav 20, DialSav 79-80. Visitor Comments When you speak (pray) to God~Ultimate Reality, never cease to listen for the answer coming back. You are all capable of hearing (or otherwise realizing) this answer upon truly listening. You will be amazed at what you are told. Eventually when you learn your true place in the scheme of things you will have a degree of control over your reality by virtue of understanding its true nature. This will enable you to follow your planned path of life in a more peaceful and accepting manner. You will have learned that life is verily a dream and God is the dreamer, dreaming you. - active-mystic One who strives for the best above all else will one day learn that all he has strived for has in the end rotted away. When he realizes this he is disgusted that he hasn't spend more time with his family or had more fun. Then he is astounded that he can still do all these things. So he does. The moral of the story is, love and be loved in return, lay your heart out on the line for a gamble. When you can learn to do this then life will be happy. - puzzled, but clearer When you seek and find the child within, you will be most profoundly disturbed by the horror of your upbringing. You will marvel at the beauty of your innate self and, in time you will become lord and servant of yourself. - Rodney I have noticed that quite a few of the interpretations of these sayings which seem to make sense include a reference to the Gospel of Thomas itself. Applying this idea to this saying, I get: Let one who seeks the meaning of the Gospel of Thomas not stop seeking until one finds. When one finds, one will be disturbed. When one is disturbed, one will marvel, and will reign over all. - Ruthie The minds of men have been temporarily lost from God (the "fall"), but when we seek to rejoin from that which we think we separated from (the Mind of God)Jesus tells us to persevere, and that by doing so we will come to see that the world that we thought was real isn't (an initially disturbing, troubling event for us), but as we reunite with God we will be truely amazed, and being One once again with All That Is we will "rule" All That Is. - A Brother Continue in your quest until you find. When you find [succeed] you will be changed [reborn] and see everything differently. A technical injunction - Thief37 There is an old saying in science that "The more I know, the more I learn I don't know." The Gospel writer is telling us that Jesus understood eternity in this way. Seek an answer, don't give up; you will find one. However, when you do, you will be astonished to learn that the answer you seek is not an end in and of itself; it only leads you to ten more questions; seek those answers; for each answer there is ten more questions and on and on and on. Eventually, you will get it--there is no end to questions, to life, to God. To know this truly inspires wonder. - Crimson731 Rhizoid is correct. Also as you seek to destroy the ego, realizations of how the world is and how many people are blind to truth will be "disturbed" then as you further seek you understand the nature of duality then you reign. - bravenewmind Never stop seeking because you will find the answers, but the answers will trouble you because they will show you the illusions under which you have conducted your life in the past. Once the veil lifts off your eyes you will begin to see the wonder of the universe and be angry that so many things had been hidden from us by individuals in the past who destroyed the keys. But the messages still resound loudly to anyone who wishes to listen. And then you will reign over the world because the world is an illusion. - daisy When the seeker has at last attained unto a better understanding of God, he will be troubled. What he finds in God will not be what he had been expecting, what he had been taught to look for. By seeking for God on his own he found the truth, and from that truth comes power, and, at least according to the Greek texts, to spiritual peace. - Kevin Answer: Jesus meant that you must be persistent in your meditation, fasting, and prayer. You then stumble into experiences that are beyond explanation with words. Jesus does not speak to the higher states of consciousness that present themselves with such diligent persistent work. Jesus speaks to the astounded surprises, etched with question and disbelief. How continued persistence study and practice brings eventual communion with your spiritual essence. Continued work leads to your discovering spiritual essence is inside you, outside you, and all around you. That you are spiritually connected with everything. The end portion of this statement of "Reign over everything, universe" was a misunderstanding that Jesus had of achieving the Unity consciousness with his inner spiritual essence. Without a teacher to point out that unity consciousness was not being god and that he was still a physical being experiencing this astounding state. He misunderstood this state. Everyone back then was expecting the messiah and this unity consciousness under these Jewish expectations would certainly bewilder and confuse Jesus as to who he really was. - AG When you understand the truth about why you experience your own existence, you become astonished because you realize that death is not absolute. At the same time you become disturbed because the truth also threatens the preconceptions of your ego. When you transcend these preconceptions, liberation of the spirit occurs. - Rhizoid Scholarly Quotes Marvin Meyer quotes two parallel passages in the Book of Thomas the Contender (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, pp. 68-69). The first: "[Fortunate is] the wise person who has [sought truth, and] when it has been found, has rested upon it for ever, and has not been afraid of those who wish to trouble the wise person." (Book of Thomas 140,41 - 141,2) The second: "Watch and pray. . . . And when you pray, you will find rest. . . . For when you leave the pains and the passions of the body, you will receive rest from the Good One, and you will rule with the king, you united with him and he united with you, from now on, for ever and ever." (Book of Thomas 145,8-16) A somewhat similar statement is found from Clement of Alexandria: "Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal." (Instructor, 1.6.26.1) Funk and Hoover write: "Thom 2:2-4 is a gnostic expansion: the gnostic quest leads to being disturbed, which causes one to marvel, and that ends in reigning. The Greek fragment of this same verse adds a fifth stage: the reign of the gnostic results in 'rest,' which is the gnostic catchword for salvation. Gnostic insight into the 'real world,' as opposed to the world of appearances, is what brings all this about. The term 'rest' is employed in the book of Revelation, on the other hand, for future salvation: those who die in the Lord 'may rest from their labors' (Rev 14:13)." (The Five Gospels, p. 471) Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "'Rest' is mentioned not in the Coptic text but in the Greek fragment; but 'rest' or 'repose' occurs in Sayings 51, 52, 60, 61, 86, and 90. It is found in the Gospel of the Hebrews (Clement of Alexandria, Strom., 2, 45, 5; 5, 96, 3), from which this saying is taken; presumably the author of Thomas changed the saying in order to lay emphasis on the idea of becoming a king. Compare 2 Timothy 2:11-12: 'Trustworthy is the saying, "If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we have endured, we shall reign with him.' The difference, once more, is between the action of the Christian and the knowing of the Gnostic." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 120) J. D. Crossan writes: "The restoration of the Greek text in Oxy P 654, of which only the first half of each line is extant, is relatively secure due to its citation by Clement of Alexandria (Fitzmyer, 1974:372-373; Hofius: 27; Marcovich: 56). In form it is a quadruple-stich saying climactically word-linked from one stich to the next: seeks/finds//finds/astounded//astounded/reign//reigned/rest (see Hennecke and Schneemelcher: 1.164)." (In Fragments, pp. 99-100) J. D. Crossan writes: "On the other hand, the version in Gos. Thom. 2 breaks both the form and content of that Greek version: seeks/finds//finds/troubled//troubled/astonished// -- / reign. The result is that the Coptic version climaxes with "rule" while the Greek text climaxes with "rest" (see Bammel, 1969). It is fairly certain that the Greek version is more original, but it is difficult to explain the Coptic deviation since 'rest' is one of Thomas's major themes (Vielhauer, 1964:297). The best explanation is probably some form of misreading of his Greek original by the Coptic translator (see Marcovich: 57; or Menard, 1975:79)." (In Fragments, p. 100) If you like the site, please buy the CD to support its work and get bonus stuff! Copyright 2012 Peter Kirby . See the Gospel of Thomas Bibliography & Credits. Gospel of Thomas Saying 2 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next