Plague Helped Bring Down Roman Empire

LiveScience ^ | May 10, 2013 | Charles Choi

[Aetius]

The history of the the wars between Rome and Parthia is complex, and unfortunately the sources are less than ideal in most cases. Sometimes the Parthians got the best of the fighting, while other times the Romans came out better. Capable Roman commanders like Ventidius Bassus proved that the tables of Carrhae could be turned on the Parthians when he used terrain favorable to the Romans to rout the Parthians. Later imperial invasions led by Trajan and Lucius Verus (actually Cassius Avidius for the latter) showed that a well led Roman army could march almost at will through Parthia.

I think one of history’s great what-ifs is what would have happened had Caesar lived to carry out his planned invasion of Parthia. For one thing, what was Caesar’s ultimate goal; to conquer Parthia (a tall order) or to decisively defeat them in war and dictate favorable terms (easy to imagine).

I think Caesar’s chances of success would have been high. The reasons for Crassus’ defeat were well known, so Caesar would not have made the same mistakes. Indeed it’s known that he planned to take a different invasion route through more favorable terrain. Caesar’s army would have included a larger cavalry force and more archers and slingers than Crassus’. Considering the success later Roman generals had against the Parthians (and Persians), it’s not hard to imagine Caesar emerging victorious in a war against Parthia.

[Aetius]

Another interesting what-if is what would have happened had Aurelian lived? Generally, and considering his remarkable feat of restoring the Roman Empire as it seemed ready to fall apart, it’s tempting to imagine what he could have done with a long reign.

Specifically, I wonder how his invasion of Persia would have turned out?

It’s a shame that the sources are so poor for that time period, and it’s a shame that someone as remarkable as Aurelian is known only to Roman history enthusiasts.

[gleeaikin]

I encountered the story of Crassus and Cassius reading an old history book by Rollins (translated from the French I think). I was so taken with this possible explanation of Cassius motivation, I am contemplating writing a play about it after I renovate my house. Can you recommend any good sources going into detail about this? So what do you consider were Crassus’ mistakes, aside from that catch-all Hubris? Speaking of Verus, didn’t he have a disaster in central Europe? As I said before, I think that Caesar’s motivation would have been to redeem the honor of Rome, besmirched by such a severe defeat.

[Sherman Logan]

It’s a shame that the sources are so poor for that time period

Actually, our sources are poor for most of the Empire. Which is probably why most people, if they've heard of any emperors at all, are familiar with Augustus thru Nero.

I've had discussions with people on FR who seemed to think it was the decadence of Calugula and Nero that caused the "Fall of the Empire!"

As though it didn't last another 400 years in the west and 1000 in the east.

[Sherman Logan]

The months of anarchy that followed ended with the ascension (usurpation) of Vespasian, the first of a number of military leaders to seize power in Roman history, and the final establishment of the precedent of dynastic rule.

You can't really call, IMO, the ascension of Vespasian a usurpation. This implies he took the throne from a "legitimate" emperor. Which again implies there is some well-known or accepted premise by which legitimacy is determined. Vespasian was the last of the "Four Emperors," and none of the other three had any real legitimacy either.

The Empire's biggest structural problem, IMO, is that they never came up with any such principle. Emperors came to power by all kinds of methods: inheritance, real or puppet election by the Senate, coup, civil war, etc. None of these was generally recognized as more legitimate than the others.

This had (at least) two great structural defects.

No Emperor could ever be sure of his generals' loyalty. He had to always be concerned about any competent general using his popularity to overthrow him. After all, that's how he or perhaps his dad got the job.

So emperors were always (and very logically) concerned about competent generals. Who they often executed or did not fully support. See Justinian and Belisarius. Although it is likely Belisarius was always loyal.

Meanwhile, overly successful generals often had a choice only between revolt or execution by the paranoid emperor.

OTOH, the primogeniture inheritance of the later European crowns, while it led to its own absurdities, allowed competent generals to be trusted by their monarchs, since they couldn't ascend the throne in any case. With the pretty much unique exception of Cromwell, and even he didn't call himself King. Louis XIV never had to worry that Turenne would displace him as King.

So Rome had civil war, over and over, every decade or two, through most of its imperial history. Think of what they could have accomplished with that energy turned outward, rather than inward, by a coherent rule of succession.

[Verginius Rufus]

Galba was the first usurper--unless you want to say Octavian was. But Galba turned out to be incompetent, and had no living sons. By Jan. 1 of the year after Nero's death, the legions on the Rhine refused to swear the customary oath to Galba but instead backed the commander on the Rhine, Aulus Vitellius. Meanwhile Otho had hoped to be adopted by Galba (thus in line to be the next emperor) but when Galba picked someone else with a more distinguished lineage (Piso), Otho engineered a coup which resulted in both of them (Galba and Piso) being murdered. Then Otho and Vitellius faced off--when Otho lost a battle to Vitellius' forces (Vitellius wasn't there), Otho committed suicide to prevent additional bloodshed. Vitellius quickly showed himself unsuited for the position of emperor, which is when Vespasian decided to make a bid for the throne.

The Year of the Four Emperors showed that anyone could become emperor if his supporters could beat the supporters of a rival, but they were fortunate to have no successful rebellions between 69 and 193. Vespasian was succeeded by his two sons, Titus and Domitian. After Domitian was murdered, the Senate put up Nerva, who quickly adopted Trajan. Trajan adopted his relative Hadrian (at least that was the official version). Hadrian adopted Antoninus Pius. Antoninus adopted Marcus Aurelius, but Marcus Aurelius had a surviving son who couldn't easily be passed over, Commodus. Commodus was another incompetent megalomaniac like Caligula and Nero and things went downhill from there.

The question is which Roman emperor the current President is most like...

Tacitus said of Galba, "in the opinion of everyone, he was capable of empire, if he had not ruled." I think of that in connection with some of the people who get hyped as potentially great Presidents if they would just run, like Colin Powell. He would have been a Galba.

[colorado tanker]

Helluva way to kick off the Dark Ages. Lots of interesting history, but at times they really were just “Dark.”

[mbj]

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-West-Forgotten-Byzantine-Civilization/dp/0307407969

This should help you out - you will probably see it in your local library.

[SunkenCiv]

Note: this topic is from 5/12/2013.

join or quit view topics view or post blog bookmark post new topic subscribe

[SunkenCiv]

Yersinia Pestis keyword, processed a bit, sorted newest to oldest within each "forum" of FR:

• Great Plague of 1665-1666 [03/28/2020]
• Rats reprieved as giant gerbils are blamed for the Black Death [02/24/2015]
• The Next Pandemic [09/02/2014]
• European genes altered by Black Death [02/04/2014]
• Plague decoded: Researchers link 2 of the most devastating pandemics in history [01/27/2014]
• How The Bubonic Plague Actually Saved Europe In The 14th Century (Finance) [05/15/2013]
• Colorado Cat Tests Positive for Bubonic Plague [06/08/2011]
• Fall of Rome Recorded in Trees [01/18/2011]
• Climate Changes Linked to Fall of Roman Empire [01/14/2011]
• Cause of the big plague epidemic of Middle Ages identified [10/20/2010]
• Convicted Disease Doc Won't Be Charged in MIA Scare [09/03/2010]
• Plague researcher in Chicago dies from infection (Yersinia pestis, septicemic plague infection) [09/21/2009]
• [Plague] Bacteria linked to university scientist's death [09/20/2009]
• Study of ancient and modern plagues finds common features [11/21/2008]
• Plague kills 37-year-old man in Arizona [10/21/2008]
• Scientists Discover Why Plague Is So Lethal [05/05/2008]
• Plague Victims Discovered After 1500 Years (Justinian) [04/10/2008]
• The Chances Of Surviving The Black Death [03/29/2008]
• Justinian 30, Factionists 10: The Nika Rebellion of AD 531 [Superbowl Warm-up] [02/02/2008]
• Black Death Targeted The Weak [01/30/2008]
• Clues to Black Plague’s Fury in 650-Year-Old Skeletons [01/28/2008]
• Medieval DNA, Modern Medicine (Lessons From The Black Death) [10/16/2007]
• Black Death Casts A genetic Shadow Over England [08/01/2007]
• Disabling Key Protein May Give Physicians Time To Treat Pneumonic Plague [01/27/2007]
• British Historian Claims to Have Found the Temple Treasures [10/09/2006]
• An Empire's Epidemic (Justinian Plague) [09/18/2006]
• Europe's Chill Linked To Disease (Black Death Caused Little Ice Age?) [02/27/2006]
• Tobacco Plant Transformed into Plague Vaccine Factory [01/18/2006]
• Medieval Plague May Explain Resistance to HIV [03/10/2005]
• Global Warming and Global Cooling are as Old as the Black Plague [02/22/2005]
• Black Death Mutant Gene Resists AIDS, Say Scientists (Virus) [01/04/2005]
• Bubonic Plague Traced To Ancient Egypt (Black Death) [03/11/2004]
• The Trials of Thomas Butler [12/20/2003]
• The viruses are out there, and they are out to get us [02/27/2003]
• Medieval Black Death Was Probably Not Bubonic Plague [04/15/2002]

  ---

• Book Review: Federico De Romanis and Marco Maiuro, eds., Across the Ocean: Nine Essays on Indo-Mediterranean Trade [08/14/2021]
• A 5,000-year-old hunter-gatherer already plagued by Yersinia pestis (Yersinia pestis is discovered in a 5,000-year-old hunter-gatherer from Latvia) [06/30/2021]
• The Four Black Deaths [04/12/2021]
• How did the plague reshape Bronze Age Europe? [05/20/2020]
• Infectious disease modeling study casts doubt on impact of Justinianic plague [05/04/2020]
• Church Records Could Identify an Ancient Roman Plague [04/10/2020]
• What The Great Historian Thucydides Saw In Athens’ Plague—And Our Own [04/08/2020]
• "Work of Every Description Ceased" ~ First hand accounts of the Plague of Justinian, 6th century AD [04/01/2020]
• "He incurred the emperor's anger" ~ The last days and death of Belisarius [03/02/2020]
• Origins Of The Black Death Traced Back To China, Gene Sequencing Has Revealed; A Plague That Killed Over a Third of Europe's Population [02/27/2020]
• Plague in humans 'twice as old' but didn't begin as flea-borne, ancient DNA reveals [07/28/2019]
• CHOLERA-Plague of 19th Century, First Global Epidemic; Day of Fasting proclaimed by President Taylor [07/10/2019]
• Did a new form of plague destroy Europe's Stone Age societies? [06/13/2019]
• Shipping Stone [Byzantine wreck, 150 tons of stone aboard] [04/01/2019]
• March 23, AD 536 ~ Mutiny of Justinian's Army in Africa [03/23/2019]
• On this day in history: Belisarius smashes the retreating Goths: End of the siege of Rome, AD 538 [03/12/2019]
• The Dancing Plague of 1518 [July 1518] [08/21/2018]
• Oldest Bubonic Plague Genome Decoded [06/11/2018]
• Maybe Rats Aren't to Blame for the Black Death [01/15/2018]
• DANCING WITH DEATH Plague is spreading because relatives are digging up their Black Death dead [10/31/2017]
• Black Death may have been lurking for centuries: DNA of plague victims in France backs up theory... [01/23/2016]
• Did famine worsen the Black Death? [01/07/2016]
• In Ancient DNA, Evidence of Plague Much Earlier Than Previously Known [11/06/2015]
• The Justinian Plague of 562 A.D. an Electromagnetic Drama? [11/02/2015]
• Plague Infected Humans Much Earlier Than Previously Thought [10/24/2015]
• The Mutant Genes Behind the Black Death [10/09/2015]
• Victims of the Great Plague 'discovered' at Liverpool Street station [08/13/2015]
• Experts raise alarm as plague kills dozens in Madagascar [02/02/2015]
• Is Ebola the Same Virus as the Black Death? Historical Similarities are Striking [10/14/2014]
• Could the Black Death Actually Have Been an Ebola-like Virus? [09/30/2014]
• Archaeologists discover 'industrial scale' wine production at ancient site [09/21/2014]
• New study sheds light on survivors of the Black Death [05/30/2014]
• Black Death skeletons unearthed by Crossrail project [03/31/2014]
• Black Death may have scuppered Roman Empire [01/28/2014]
• Why Halley's Comet May Be Linked to Famine 1,500 Years Ago [12/20/2013]
• Dipstick test for plague on the way [07/20/2013]
• Plague Helped Bring Down Roman Empire [05/12/2013]
• Black Death Genetic Code "Built" [10/13/2011]
• Deadly Black Death bug hasn't changed, but we have [10/12/2011]
• Black Death Bacterium Identified: Genetic Analysis of Medieval Plague Skeletons... [09/03/2011]
• BBC:Roman Rise, Fall 'Recorded in Trees' (Climate Change Led to Fall of Empire) BARF-A-GANZA! [01/16/2011]
• Macedonia: Archaeological Excavations of Justiniana Prima Continue near Skopje [02/05/2009]
• Comet smashes triggered ancient famine [ March 536 AD ] [01/08/2009]
• Lost documents shed light on Black Death [06/01/2007]
• Black Death 'Was Not Plague' Say Experts [04/12/2002]

  ---

• Bubonic Plague “Imminent” in Los Angeles, Says Dr. Drew Pinsky [07/23/2019]
• How The Black Death Plague Helps The Environment, It Could Reduce Atmospheric Lead Pollution [06/02/2017]
• Experts: Ebola Outbreak, Black Death 'Plague' Spread From Africa as Viruses [10/11/2014]
• Was Ebola Behind the Black Death? [10/01/2014]

  ---

• Classical Corner: The Antonine Plague and the Spread of Christianity [04/14/2020]
• When plague in Italy killed 1.5 million people in a single year ~ Saint Frances of Rome and the Plague of 1656 [03/09/2020]
• Teens discover 1500-year-old church that redefines Israeli history [11/27/2019]

[SunkenCiv]