Posted on 07/21/2012 2:00:36 PM PDT by golux
There are lots of experts in this forum of one kind or another. Here we have James Holmes. Why wasn't he taken down? Would you have done it?
Most front rows where freer movement is allowed by not being boxed in, are usually filled with the youngest in the crowd. With everybody seated and no guns allowed, movement was restricted greatly by the rows of seats and rows and rows of panicked people...one eyewitness account said he shot those closest to him first(whether true or not???).... for someone to get to him before being shot would have been a miracle in that sardine can.
By the time he actually shot people, the tear gas was overwhelming the patrons. I think I would have made a run at him if I was close and could see anything. (but, I'm old and don't give a damn)
That was exactly what I was thinking.
I misspelled his name, Goetz. :)
any one basing their life on comic book movies at midnight is either too stoned or too stupid or both to do much but eat large bags of Doritos and say “dude” repeatedly.
I’ll bet that a few of the movie goers tried but were shot dead. There are probably a couple of REAL heroes among the dead. One military serviceman, perhaps. It’s just like 911.. The next dude who tries this will get rushed, big time.
Navy sailor from Illinois killed in Colorado shooting
The audience was not able to tell the difference between what was part of the show and what was not until the place was smoke-filled and bullets were flying.
I refuse to blame the victims.
“your basic instinct is to hit the deck and escape”
Absolutely! Shock and awe is designed to catch the victims ( enemy ) off guard and it takes some time for most to process unexpected information. The passengers on Flight 93 took some time to steel their resolve. The entire episode in the theater only took seconds and was over in a minute or two. The shooter positioned himself so as to limit the approaches available to attackers and wore armor in case someone shot back.
I wouldn’t have any criticism for the victims in this sad case.
I take this one further, even if I am alone without my family, as the father of two young boys, I am far less likely to risk my life than I used to be. I dont know what I would have done myself, its easy to sit here and imagine what goes on, but unless you have been there, you have no idea what its really like.
True. And even if the theater had been full of would-be heroes there simply wasn't much of anything that could be done against a guy in full body armor wielding a deadly weapon and who also has the element of surprise on his side.
To everyone: I suggest leaving the second-guessing to instances where people run away from a woman being raped or something of that sort. What happened the other night was off the charts in terms of what any average person should ever have to deal with or be judged by.
Some of these “stupid passing thoughts” as you call them are echoes of what some people do and train for in order to protect innocent American civilians. My own service was almost ridiculously modest but I hardly discount the opinions of the men and women of this forum many of whom are hardened individuals and worthy of careful attention.
Thanks.
Sad to say, this was a no-win scenario for pretty much anyone unlucky enough to be in that cinema.
I’ve been pepper-sprayed (by my STUPID ex-girlfriend who was “horsing around” with her little purse canister of it), and I can tell you, I would not, under any circumstances, have been able to acquire a black-clad target in a mostly dark environment with all hell breaking loose around me. I’m a very good shot, but even armed, I would not have attempted to take out the perp for fear of hitting an innocent bystander.
My father, an old Navy vet who trained me in marksmanship told me, “If you can’t clearly see your target, you don’t shoot.”.
what any average person should ever have to deal with...
When police apprehended him outside the Century Aurora 16 theater Friday morning, Holmes had four guns on him. He was carrying:
– An AR-15 assault rifle
– A Remington 8-gauge 1270 shotgun
– Two 40-caliber Glock handguns
Three of those weapons, including the shotgun and the assault rifle, he brought into the theater, according to Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates. A single shooter with three high-powered guns: It’s hardly shocking that the massacre took the lives of 12 and injured 59 others. During a press conference Friday morning, Oates couldn’t even put a number on the shots Holmes fired. The chief admitted it was beyond his team’s scope of calculation, limiting his confirmation only to “many, many rounds.”
Absolutely. There's no way to know.
For those wondering why no one took a shot, or believe someone could've... he was well armed and well armored, there was a gas canister used to provide cover and hundreds of innocents in a panic in a darkened theater.
Here’s a better question posed by Rep. Gohmert: Did No One Else in Aurora Theater Have a Gun?
http://news.yahoo.com/rep-gohmert-did-no-one-else-aurora-theater-183314031—abc-news-politics.html
He could have had a knife or an infected needle.
He could have had an accomplice.
He was killing people. He went into a theater where he knew there would be unarmed, unprepared people. He was in body armor with crotch and neck guards. The shooter knew he would cause terror.
I’m sure most people in that theater were confused as to what was going on. A lot of them thought it was a publicity gimmick.
I don’t fault anyone who ran. I don’t think they’re cowards.
I'll hold your coat. How come the Ft Hood shooting did not have that effect?
Quite probably because CCW is illegal in Aurora.
CO is, IIRC, a shall-issue State; but, some municipalities have been allowed to get away with local bans. Aurora is one of those municipalities.
Excellent point. Unsuccessful valor is rarely noticed.
The shooter looked like a member of a SWAT team. And that’s part of the problem. We have been conditioned that anyone dressed lile Holmes is a cop. By the time they figured out what was happening, it was too late.
We all like to think we would have done something. But I probably would have hunkered down or ran like they did. But I wouldn’t run off and leave my wife.
After watching the lynching George Zimmerman is going through, here where I live, after defending himself from a “No Limit N-—” ghetto thug...I can understand a little bit more why people are hesitant to defend themselves
More and more, as the media paints Holmes as “mentally ill” ,and, not a “criminal”, you can be sure this same media would have attacked any one that would defend themselves
Of course, the theatre’s ban on weapons limited any one from defending themselves.....which is why I am against any business having any rule that punishes customers and employees from defending themselves against real-time criminal acts....A businesses rights end when they interfere with mine...especially my Right to Self Defense
Great analyses. I like to think that I would have gone for the flashes. I think I would have. I certainly pray that I would have had the courage to attack despite preconceptions. (Bay - La Vie Claire?)
I don’t think anyone is “blaming the victims”!
It is more of a discussion to try to understand what happened and how people would react..and how situations of attack are very different.
Question on your three “suggestions”
1. You routinely carry flares when going to the movies ??
2. You could tell he was wearing a gas mask, were familiar with that type of mask that you knew where the intakes were, and could manage not to get shot while getting close enough to install said bags, and KEEP THEM ON while he was choking ?>
3. Aurora is a no-concealed-carry town. So, how did you lawfully carry a weapon into the theater ??
Infantry are trained in immediate response to orders. For example, “AMBUSH RIGHT!” everybody immediately flanks right and charges firing with whatever you have.
You know you will suffer tremendous casualties, but if you do not prevail, you are in a kill zone and will be killed.
The WWII and Korean War generation had grown up playing in the outside and had a greater instinct to mix it up in a fist’ocuffs and prevailing.
This generation at best might be tooled up to more quickly play computer games, but hesitates at real world fist o cuffs.
Even with this perspective, some reports indicated he was armed with upwards of 2-9mm/40cal pistols, a shotgun and an AR-15. Smaller caliber pistols and possibly the AR-15 in single shot mode might be rushed before collapsing, but the shotgun is a formidable equalizer.
It would probably take 3-5 men rushing him concurrently and 4 being killed before one could engage him physically, then others could join in. He might have been able to also defend off 20-40 consecutively in that situation.
I haven’t heard if he deployed smoke or teargas. If teargas, such as CS, then it incapacitates and the rush would only last as long as you could hold your breath in those tight quarters.
On the other hand, with the gas mask, his visibility is greatly confined so it would be much easier to catch him from a blind spot.
For those under attack, you wouldn’t know how many attackers there were,..necessarily, adding to the uncertainty.
Most hand-to-hand combat situations are over within 2 seconds. A knife in a hand fight prevails and a gun is a great equalizer in a knife fight. Automatic weapon fire gains fire superiority and it takes equal to 3x as much firepower to gain superiority depending upon the endurance, motivation, and willpower of those engaged.
I am glad you KNOW so well why anyone is posting in this discussion. We are so lucky to have such freeprs who are sooo above us less brilliant mortals on the thread.
Just because there is a point raised and a discussion ensues does not mean we are “judging’ or finding fault with those in that nitemare.
I for one, have a better understanding of the situation and how people do react and why...thanks to many excellant posts.
And btw, just maybe..discussing and analyzing this situation MAY help in other situations of attack,even if not exactly the same...or prevent such carnage. THE military and security agencies routinely have these kinds of discussions. So maybe we should just let THEM do it and shut up.
If you don’t like the discussion, move on.
Your question was a barely formed passing thought. An uninformed one at that if you read post #21. Does everyone’s uninformed passing thought deserve its own thread here? “No, of course not”, you’ll answer, “only MINE!” And it couldn’t have been asked on any one of the dozens existing threads? No, have bring attention to one’s deep thoughts!
Learn to develop thoughts, write complete paragraphs, and research your questions, is my advice.
Don’t feel bad, there’ll be a dozen more such threads in the next 12 hours on this site which was once a discussion forum before deteriorating into a chat room of comic book fans.
RE: Great analyses. I like to think that I would have gone for the flashes
Same here. I’m reasonably certain at the end if he turned his back on me he would be in a rear naked choke till 10 min or some one pried me off him... how did it end? LUNATIC: I’m out of bullets. feed me for the rest of my life?
Your question was a barely formed passing thought. An uninformed one at that if you read post #21. Does everyone’s uninformed passing thought deserve its own thread here? “No, of course not”, you’ll answer, “only MINE!” And it couldn’t have been asked on any one of the dozens existing threads? No, have bring attention to one’s deep thoughts!
Learn to develop thoughts, write complete paragraphs, and research your questions, is my advice.
Don’t feel bad, there’ll be a dozen more such threads in the next 12 hours on this site which was once a discussion forum before deteriorating into a chat room of comic book fans.
So.. in your reasoning the soldiers killed and wounded in the Ft. Hood massacre were also poooosies and metrosexuals for not neutralizing the shooter in the first few nonoseconds...yet it took 1/2 hour to take out the shooter in that case..on a military base WITH trained soldiers..yet alone civilians in a movie theatre in this case.
Some of you people really crack me up..you were not even there yet saying how you would taken this guy out.
Let me guess. You walked 15 miles to school uphill in 5 foot snow both ways huh?
thanks...I am learning a lot and gain solace that we ARE discussing this and not just avoiding this........
you know, “just move along now, nothing to see, don’t talk about it, no need to share your thoughts or feelings...”
Disregard #80, please, it was meant for the starter of the thread, not you, sorry.
If there is a reasonable chance of success, I hope that I’d make the move. But you don’t know until you’re there, and suicide isn’t in my genetic makeup.
There's also Romney staffers and dupes, Catholic spammers, and now even animal rights activists. A real gathering of 'Big Tent' Republicans!
Yes, and each and everyone of them having passing deep thoughts they just have to share with the rest of the world.
Numerous posters on FR on other threads mentioned they go to these midnight screening themselves...
One of the hopeful out comes of this discussion and ones like it, even the TV coverage is tha tpeople are talking about this and I have many friends who have said to me,”You know, I wonder what I would have done, or be able to do?”
No one that I have heard, on TV or this thread has ever “ blamed or judged or second guessed” the victims , dead or alive in this massacre.
the question “why didn’t someone take him out?” is quickly followed by introspection of “What would or could I have done?’..usually with a very humble acknowledgment of the realities of that situation.
It is now much harder after 9-11 for someone to use the same tactics to hijack a plane...we all talked about the heroes, the situations and learned from it. Not that this is a guarantee for us to be able ( or even have the possibility) to do the most effective thing...but that’s how we “cope” with the unimaginable.
Why did no one jump him?
Same reason no one jumped the VA tech killer, but watched him reload like sheep.
Good point...even the police on the scene initially thought he was one of them...Psychologically, that would freeze most people.
For most Americans, it would have been a long commute.
good post...I was thinking the same the same thing! After a while, there were hundreds of people behind him, right? All it took was one guy in the bunch of people nearby to jump on his back and choke him out in 10 seconds....or snap his neck.
EXCELLANT analysis and comprehensive points. thanks.
Mr. Impatient said in relevant part:
“If someone has an automatic weapon and is currently firing it”
Calling this liberal lie out. Nothing I have seen indicated he had anything other then a semi automatic. If you got something to back up he had an automatic weapon I would like to see it.
5.56mm
The problem is the cell phone. Since they invented the cell phone, there are very few pay
phone booths. No phone booths, nowhere to change into the Superman outfit.
Sort of a foolish and somehow inappropriate question being discussed. The killer was prepared fir a massacre. The audience was ready for a movie.
The more I think about it, it’s somewhat remarkable that the death toll wasn’t substantially higher.
The murderer apparently used all he could muster in the premeditated act, but in this day and age, even a moderately equipped murderer seeking mass slaughter could pose situations where they could slaughter 10 times as many victims.
Maybe he overestimated his ability to act with the gas mask.
i have found this thread helpful.
Don’t read this or the next “dozen” threads if you don’t like them.
You are not the “DECIDER’ of who or what should be posted.If all you can do is complain about the thread being even posted...well, I guess that IS all you can do.
you have now given even more attention to a thread you feel is worthless to be its own thread.How ironic.
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