Posted on 04/17/2018 8:05:31 AM PDT by Ennis85
“Queer rights activist” and “biblical scholar” Matthew Vines “reinterpreted” Scripture verses that typically condemn homosexuality in an LGBT-“affirming” reading of the Bible at Harvard University, the Crimson reported.
Who is Vines?
Vines is a prominent speaker on pro-gay topics in the context of Christianity and authored “God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships.” The book’s controversial content resulted in WaterBrook Multnomah — which shared staff with the book’s publisher Convergent — resigning its membership with the National Religious Broadcasters in 2014.
What did he say at his Harvard talk?
During his talk Saturday, Vines “discussed six Bible verses that some religious leaders assert condemn homosexuality; he reinterpreted the verses through the lenses of more ‘affirming’ readings that place the lines in cultural and temporal contexts,” the Crimson reported. The paper didn’t say what verses Vines discussed.
In addition, Vines “argued that long-term, monogamous homosexual relationships were not a well-known cultural phenomenon until recently, and that, therefore, no Bible verse responds directly to these relationships,” the Crimson added.
Vines also responded point by point to a talk an “ex-gay” speaker and critic of homosexuality gave at a Harvard College Faith in Action meeting in February, the paper said, which occurred just prior to administrators placing the Christian student group on probation allegedly for pressuring a female leader to resign after she began dating another female.
Vines said Jackie Hill-Perry’s talk in front of Harvard College Faith in Action was one of his motivations for coming to speak, the Crimson said.
“This type of message has done unfathomable harm and destruction to LGBTQ people around the world — broken so many relationships, broken so many lives,” Vines told the crowd, the paper reported.
Vines — a Harvard student himself before leaving as a sophomore in 2010 — also discussed his experiences as a member of conservative Christian student groups at the school, the Crimson said.
“Despite some of the tensions and challenges that I had with those groups, it really was the best community that I found in my first year here,” Vines said, according to the paper. “I actually felt like I was able to get to know people and be seen and not be completely invisible.”
How did one student react?
Student Aidan L. Stoddart helped organize Vines’ talk and said his detailed reading of Scripture “creates a bridge” between Christians of differing stripes, the Crimson noted.
“I think Matthew’s a really important figure because he has a critical and mature and very deeply life-giving relationship with Scripture that is centered on love,” Stoddart added to the paper. “Because it’s based on a love of Scripture that we all share.”
Such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
A sodomite that continues to live in his filthy sodomite lifestyle is not saved. He has not "submitted to the righteousness of God" and is still "seeking to establish his own righteousness."
"Seeking to establish his own righteousness" is trying to be righteous by your own works and law-keeping which you are promoting as the Jews have done since Moses.
"Submitting to the righteousness of God" is submittng to
the righteousness of God without the law [as] manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believeRom 3:21-22.
So that NOW under the New Covenant of the Gospel of the Grace of Christ,
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be savedRom 10:13.
CHRIST is the ONLY issue.
That’s not really an answer to the question I asked.
I have a question for you.
If ALL of our sins (past, present, and future) were judged on Christ on the cross 2000 years ago and God says he will NEVER remember ANY of our sins anymore ((Heb 8:12; 10:17), then why do we have to repent for sins we commit now? My Bible says those sins I commit now and in the future were already fully and completely judged 2000 years ago so that now, God sees each of us believers as he sees Jesus (1 John 4:17).
This is typical antinomianism that you are spouting, and part of the reason why the modern church looks so much like the world.
Many will think that they "have called upon the name of the Lord". But the truth is they have not.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Jesus says they must "do the will of the Father."
They didn't lose their salvation. They never had it. Jesus says, "I never knew you", not "I used to know you."
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The so-called professing sodomite who continues in his filthy behavior has been given over by God. There may be some who have engaged in sodomite behaviors and then stepped away. But according to Romans 1, it is rare sodomite who can come to God. True, some few have (see 1 Corinthians 6:11), but the overwhelming majority are Romans 1 reprobates.
“If ALL of our sins (past, present, and future) were judged on Christ on the cross 2000 years ago and God says he will NEVER remember ANY of our sins anymore ((Heb 8:12; 10:17), then why do we have to repent for sins we commit now?”
Because God tells us to do it.
“My Bible says those sins I commit now and in the future were already fully and completely judged 2000 years ago so that now, God sees each of us believers as he sees Jesus (1 John 4:17).”
My Bible says “repent, or you shall perish”, “repent, that your sins may be blotted out”, and “go and sin no more”. I haven’t read anything in the Bible that says “You’re forgiven, so you can go ahead and sin all you like now!”, but perhaps I have missed something.
And you won’t read it there, because it isn’t there.
The sad thing is that I used to hear some of this same stuff at my old seeker church. And many Christians I have met over the years think that it is perfectly fine to have sex with someone with whom they are not married, engage in idolatry, engage in homosexual behavior, neglect children etc. This easy beliefism is encouraged by our modern seeker churches. Being a Believer is not “easy”!! We are not justified by works, but it sometimes takes tremendous courage to operate faithfully in our fallen world.
No, I’m “spouting” the Gospel of the grace of Christ found ALL over Romans, Galatians, and the entire NT.
You, on the other hand are spouting what the Pharisees spouted many years ago, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (Mat. 15:9).
they [the Jews, like you] have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.Rom 10:2-4.
He is also technically still in the Old Covenant of the law which ended upon his death on the cross and resurrection which launched the New Covenant of the Gospel of the Grace of Christ which declares UNEQUIVOCALLY (unlike you),
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved(Rom 10:13).
You have missed a lot.
Before Jesus died and rose again, they were still in the Old Covenant of the law especially where you see Jesus talking mainly to the self-righteous Pharisees “repent, or you shall perish”, “repent, that your sins may be blotted out”.
But when Jesus talked to a sinner who knew they were a sinner, his tone and approach completely changed. Do you think the story of the woman caught in adultery was about sin? Think again. It was about condemnation. The hypocritical Pharisees, like you, wanted to condemn this woman for her sexual promiscuity. But after showing the Pharisees for the hypocrites they were and are, he turned to the woman and asked, “Has no man condemned you?”
She said, “No man Lord.” He wanted the woman to say she wasn’t condemned. He then said, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” His no condemnation gave her the ability to go and sin no more.
You would say, “Go and sin no more and I will not condemn you.” But that isn’t what Jesus said then or now. Jesus gave to this adulteress the same blank check of forgiveness and no condemnation he offers to sodomites, murderers and every despicable human being you can think of.
Did Jesus give the law so men would keep it? NO!!! The law was given to show man how hopeless he was to bring him to Christ. “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith [NOT the works of the law] Gal 3:24.
But doesn’t the law help us not to sin? NO!!! The law triggers sin and strengthens sin. “The strength of sin is the law” 1 Corinthians 15:56.
So what’s the BIBLICAL (not your) answer for sin? Grace!!! “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law [which triggers sin] but under grace” Rom 6:14.
The law was meant to be a tutor. Men have always been saved by faith, through grace. The new covenant was always the end of the law.
The problem with the Jews (unlike me) is that they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (Romans 9:30-32)
But like James, I believe that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone:
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:18-24)
Faith without works is dead, "you foolish fellow."
There are no willful practicing impenitent saved sinners, since that is contrary to to saving faith. Faith is what appropriates justification, without works, but that faith which Scripture refers to as salvific is that out of a poor and contrite heart, (Ps. 34:18; Is. 66:2) and which effects characteristic obedience to the Object of said faith, to please Him, (1 John 3:3-10; Romans 6:20-22) the risen Lord Jesus, who loves righteousness and hates iniquity, thus evidencing
"things which accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9)
Works themselves do not save, but they do evidence what we believe, and thus whether one is a believer. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God...And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: (1 Thessalonians 1:4,6)
All that we choose to do is a result of what we truly believe, at least at the moment, thus faith and works are inseparable - though it is the faith behind works that is counted for righteousness - and one simply cannot claim to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation - and this faith is in a person, not just in a promise abstract from who and what He is - and then willfully impenitently live contrary to His known will.
For which obedience includes repentance when convicted of not walking in obedience. . (2 Corinthians 7:9-11; cf. James 4:17) It is only these who are promised salvation, such as in, " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)
In contrast to such texts which warn, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:21)
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:36-39)
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)
Thus we have warnings such as
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)
In contrast to,
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Hebrews 6:9-10)
This is true, and the warning here is clearly to those who had been born again (Gal. 4:6; cf. Heb. 3:12) but since works incontrovertibly manifest what we believe, then one who impenitently practices unrighteousness evidences he does not truly believe in the Lord Jesus, any more than one can claim to believe in Reagan was a good president and yet support Communism.
Luther himself taught, Luther himself rejected the idea that a faith which did not effect characteristic obedience was salvific, stating,
faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit...
Faith cannot help doing good works constantly...
if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit...
where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith.. where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.
if obedience and Gods commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devils own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead.. .
if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, "the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.
Works are necessary for salvation [as evidential fruit], but they do not cause salvation...
faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works...
faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire...
it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present...
where the works are absent, there is also no Christ...
References by God's grace.
Sodomy wasn’t just a sin in the scripture, it was far worst. It was considered an abomination by God. According to Romans, it occurs when people keep pushing their sinfulness towards the extreme and rejecting God. God finally gives them over to their sinful heart desire-and one of those things is sodomy.
It is true that God can redeem anyone from their sinful behavior through His grace. But I’m not sure that there are “a lot of sodomite Christians”. Seeing someone saved out of sodomy is rare because scripture tells us that God has given them over to their lusts. It would be like Jesus telling the Pharisees that they will die in their sins and then saying God died for their sins. There comes a point when a person has exhaused God’s grace. We can only pray that it is not too late for their redemption.
The Book of James is a “show me” epsitle.
“show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”James 2:18.
The Book fo James is not about salvation but about effectiveness. James is talking about how others are affected by your faith. The Book of James does NOT contradict the Gospel of the Grace of Christ laid out in Romans through Hebrews, as you would have it do. It is simply saying that TO OTHERS (not God), your faith is useless if they’re not affected by something tangible in your life.
That is fine, but people do not determine your salvation, God in Christ does. You may fail before man, but God has stated in his New Covenant that he will NEVER remember your sins because Christ has fully borne God’s judgement for all sins everywhere.
Your post makes zero sense. No traditional Christian doctrine says that we are free to behave as we please so long as we claim to be Believers. Good behavior, as measured ultimately by adherence to God’s laws, is evidence of the condition of one’s heart and soul (salvation). If one has the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to wilfully & defiantly continue in sin. We struggle with the flesh, yes, but embracing sin is a characteristic of the enemy. Homosexual behavior and lifestyle constitutes physical, emotional and spiritual bondage to sin. And you think these people are “saved”?? What other abominations do you think are permitted to Christians?? Which denomination are you??
AMEN!!
“Before Jesus died and rose again, they were still in the Old Covenant of the law especially where you see Jesus talking mainly to the self-righteous Pharisees “repent, or you shall perish”, “repent, that your sins may be blotted out”.”
Yet Paul, who started his ministry AFTER Jesus died and rose again, still preached repentance:
“But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” Acts 26:20
“The hypocritical Pharisees, like you, wanted to condemn this woman...”
Who have I condemned? The only one condemning people here, it seems, is you, who is so quick to throw out this “Pharisee” insult, which is also a violation of the religious forum rules, I might remind you.
“His no condemnation gave her the ability to go and sin no more.”
Yes, certainly grace gives us the ability to not sin anymore, yet we are still instructed not to sin anymore. Never are we instructed to go and continue to sin.
“You would say, “Go and sin no more and I will not condemn you.””
If I had said that, you could quote me on that, but you cannot. So do not try to put words in my mouth and tell me what I would say. You are arguing with your imagination here, not with me.
“So what’s the BIBLICAL (not your) answer for sin? Grace!!! “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law [which triggers sin] but under grace” Rom 6:14.”
Yes, we are not under the dominion of sin, meaning we are given the power to overcome sin through grace. This does not mean that we have no obligation to overcome sin. The latter proposition is called Antinomianism, a heresy that Paul answered in Romans 6:1-2:
“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”
He stresses the relevant point even more in verses 11-14:
“11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
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