Posted on 06/29/2015 8:23:31 AM PDT by don-o
All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.”
Why Do The Due Process Concerns Of Innocents Outweigh The State Interest Of Convicting Those That Are Responsible For The Shooting In Waco?
The Blackstone Ratio, a concept attributed to a famous jurist of the 1860’s named Sir William Blackstone, is commonly accepted as a cornerstone of civil liberties and a free society. Closely related to the idea that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, the Blackstone Ratio means that democratic societies do not sacrifice the liberties of the innocent in order to punish the guilty. Democratic societies accept that prioritizing civil liberties of individuals means some guilty people will escape justice in order to preserve a free society.
In a totalitarian society the opposite is true. Totalitarian governments consider the state’s interest in punishing criminals more important than the collateral damage created by innocents suffering in the process. Totalitarian governments believe that casting dragnets to capture the guilty is justified because it is motivated by the goal of reducing crime and insuring the safety of its citizens.
Certainly it is true that all governments have a compelling state interest to reduce crime and punish the guilty. This is even true in democratic societies. It is even reasonable to say that this interest is based on the belief that people in society have the right to be safe from criminal activity. But the state, in an attempt to accomplish its interests, will eventually come in conflict with personal liberties. So how does the American democratic system determine which interests are more important?
Oftentimes rights come in conflict and compete for priority. When they do, the American criminal justice system says we must balance these rights based on the intent and purpose of the Constitution and the impact on civil liberties generally. The Bill of Rights irrefutably places critical priority on the sanctity of individual rights over draconian police arrests and incarcerations justified by state interests like reducing crime or general public safety.
There is no better example than Waco to demonstrate how the state’s interest in punishing the guilty has come in conflict with the civil liberties of innocents and potential eyewitnesses. Regardless of what the currently unreleased facts ultimately reveal about what happened in Waco, it defies reason to assert that more than 170 individuals could possibly have committed a crime or be deserving of $1 million dollar bonds.
As has been widely reported, the Waco PD made it very clear that many of the more than 170 individuals arrested were arrested because of their associations with motorcycle clubs allegedly involved in the Waco shooting. There was absolutely no evidence specified, other than mere organizational association, establishing particularized or specific probable cause for any of the individuals arrested. This is evidenced by the fact that every single arrest was based on an identical and generic fill-in the name affidavit.
It has also been made clear, in complete violation of an individual’s 5th Amendment right to remain silent, that prosecutors and judges imposed $1 million dollar bonds on every individual arrested based on the gravity of the crime scene and the non-cooperation of those arrested. Bail is intended to insure that an individual does not flee. It is not intended to be a punitive measure. And the right not to be forced into statements of self-incrimination is elementary, understood by almost everyone, particularly those that work in the judiciary system like prosecutors and judges.
Mere membership in a group, even a group that contains convicted felons, does not establish probable cause. As articulated by a recent ACLU press release related to Waco, “While all the facts of this tragic incident are still unclear, we do know that if any of the more than 170 arrests were based solely on membership in a group, the Constitution demands more, including probable cause. Mere membership in a group should never be the basis of an arrest. And dragnet arrests raise the specter of overzealous police work, just like we’ve seen at our border and in cities around the country.”
It cannot credibly be argued that the Waco arrest and punitive bond tactics employed by law enforcement and government authorities is not resulting in the suffering of innocents. While incarcerated, innocent people are separated from their families, loved ones, employers, and the enjoyment of every civil liberty enjoyed by free citizens. Many of the accused are still incarcerated. And even those that have been released had to pay a bond and agree to further restrictions on behavior and associations.
So how should this have been handled? It’s not my job to decide how law enforcement does its job beyond demanding, and hoping that others demand, that whatever tactics employed respect baseline constitutional principles and individual liberties in order to protect the innocent and the foundations of a free society.
There is a reason the Blackstone Ratio is a critical component of a democratic criminal justice system. Everyone, not just bikers, should be deeply concerned about tactics that cause innocents to suffer. And this is true even if it means the guilty escape prosecution. Sure, rounding up and arresting every biker, or catholic, or Muslim, or teenager with a trench coat, or eyewitness to a crime will most likely include those responsible for the crime being investigated. But these draconian dragnets also ensnare innocent people that suffer from damage to their families, employment, reputations, finances, and the enjoyment of the basic freedoms intended to be guaranteed to every American.
I’m guessing the cops lured the gangs of fun loving boys and their old ladies for an after church brunch and boobfest. Everyone there knew trouble was coming because of who was there. They haven’t even mentioned any drugs confiscated or drug test results. I would guess the shooters were jacked uo big time. These guys broke all their own rules and created a mess for everyone and as usual the cops get blamed for cleaning it up.
I am not 100% convinced of "corruption" as the CAUSE of the action on 5/17. I think incompetence, poor planning, panic, etc, can also be taken into account; as well as the "just following orders" defense. After all, the DA, Abelino Reyna, was ON SCENE that day.
I think that it's possible that Reyna thought and continues to think that he can put a huge hurt on organized crime with this case. He's gambling that he can ignore matters of justice, such as turning probable into tissue paper, and his bosses (the people of McLennan County) are fine with that.)
He may be right. It's the culture that is, without a doubt, corrupted. Reyna may have timed things exactly right for his purposes.
Judge Sullivan: Some Arrests at 2004 RNC Lacked Probable Cause
I have no argument that ‘some’ of those arrested were not charged and were released. In a murder incident of such magnitude it would seem necessary to arrest anyone that ‘could’ have been involved (dressed up like the criminal bike gangers). As the investigation progressed, some were released without charges.
The issue with Stupido Boomerang, is his contention that ALL were innocent. Do you not agree that was an absurd lie?
There is plenty of evidence out there to suggest that some of the bikers went there to cause trouble and did. So I would say it's an incorrect assertion. I would not cal lit an absurd lie, it doesn't get to that level, so much of the evidence is he said she said that there is still room for speculation. It maybe more a style thing...
I can see now, those of you who have this attitude about biker GANGS.
There are those here that support the gangs and those here that are against the gangs. The gangs that started continued their war with guns in a family plaza.
“Belonging to a non 1% club that came to the meeting may be proof that they are naive, but it’s not a criminal offense.”
They were released the same day without arrest. I think about 60 of them.
“Belonging to a non 1% club that came to the meeting may be proof that they are naive, but it’s not a criminal offense.”
WTH do they pay their extortion money to the Bandidos?
“How can they conduct a gun battle like that and with that sort of accuracy”
It doesn’t take a crack shot to hit your target at six feet ...
“We here all know now kind of an educated guess what happened likely....”
All the witnesses including Cossacks and Bandidos say the bikers started shooting first.
Bikers on the scene commend the police for their actions.
Peter Graves, Bandidos officer and TCOC president at the Waco shooting, says they respect the police for doing their job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_sCRg69TQE
(Big John Snyder, Vice president of the Boozefighters at the Waco shooting) “The police were professional, considering the situation they were in. They were professional and doing their job,” he said.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-waco-biker-20150519-story.html
We have also heard from a biker family member that the police probably saved lives at Waco.
“After all, the DA, Abelino Reyna, was ON SCENE that day.”
I won’t bother asking you to validate that ...
I can. I have actually done my own due diligence. Troll.
http://www.kcentv.com/story/29124287/mclennan-county-district-attorney-speaks-on-deadly-brawl
WACO — McLennan County District Attorney Abel Reyna addressed the deadly brawl for the first time on Wednesday.
Reyna was at the scene with law enforcement on Sunday which is unusual. District attorneys and prosecutors don’t normally get involved in the working of a scene, but Reyna says this one was definitely an exception.
I see. When he heard about the shooting and arrests, he took his Sunday afternoon and went to assist processing the scene. Much different from your original post that implied he was their during the shooting.
I implied no such thing.
Once again, you troll by assigning a meaning to my words which simply is not there.
Disgraceful.
“I implied no such thing.”
Here is your post. You were discussing planning, panic and following orders as police actions during the shooting and followed it with ‘after all’ the DA was there. Absolutely implying that the DA was at the scene during the shooting.
“I think incompetence, poor planning, panic, etc, can also be taken into account; as well as the “just following orders” defense. After all, the DA, Abelino Reyna, was ON SCENE that day.”
Then let me state that I have no reason to believe that the DA had anything to do with the lack of planning and panicked performance of duty that Waco PD seems to have exhibited on 5/17.
I do have reason to believe that he was on the spot to assist with advising who to arrest, getting blanket affidavits constructed and no doubt the $1,000,000 number set up.
True. I’m more interested in seeing justice for those LEO’s who were the shooters and those who gave the order.
We all want to know how this started without the bias of those telling the story on either side. As I said; any bikers who committed murder that day need to see justice as well.
Then there were those who were trying protect themselves from either another biker or over zealous LE shooters.
Does someone lose the right to protect oneself if the shooter is LE?
This is not a one-sided crime. Even with the minute amount of info we currently have; it’s obvious criminal wrongdoing happened on both sides - bikers and LE. The law may and probably will end up protecting the LEO’s involved and those higher ups who gave the kill order but that does not absolve them from wrongdoing or civil liabilities.
There is also the culture of corruption among the citizens of Waco to contend with as well. This is a very separate but important issue too. How do you fix that kind of corrupt mentality in any way other than making them pay heavily for having it?
” Even with the minute amount of info we currently have; it’s obvious criminal wrongdoing happened on both sides - bikers and LE. “
What is the obvious criminal wrongdoing by the LE?
As far as any LEO being put on trial for actual things they did wrong, I doubt it.
No LEO was ever charged or held accountable in any way for the last Waco event.
Which, in my opinion was at least negligent manslaughter, if not something more.
But, Janet Reno did take full responsibility by saying "I take full responsibility". So the blood of the dead children is on her hands.
” Even with the minute amount of info we currently have; it’s obvious criminal wrongdoing happened on both sides - bikers and LE. “
What is the obvious criminal wrongdoing by the LE?
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