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Le'ts brain storm the next generation warship. Ideas?
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Posted on 04/15/2017 6:06:44 AM PDT by meatloaf

Are there alternatives to the Navy's direction?


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To: Reily
I think they go under and explode breaking the keel, breaking the back of the ship. The ship no longer has the "structural soundness " to stay afloat & fight.

Without revealing TMI that issue is not an issue anymore.

61 posted on 04/15/2017 12:46:18 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: schurmann

Thanks for correcting me. Sometimes I have, you know, attacks of stupidity. Next time when I say a (modern) frigate should be able to take a hit, like Old Ironsides was able to take a hit, I’ll remember that Old Ironsides was able to take a hit. Well, unless I have another attack of the stupids.

I think you are also “correcting” me on the status of the original set of six frigates, as they were “heavy frigates.” They were up-gunned relative to other frigates, with especially strong hulls.

When the term frigate was revived, during WWII, it referred to a ship smaller than a destroyer and used primarily for escorting and screening missions. Both frigates and destroyers have gotten larger. Frigates of today are about the size of the frigates of WWII (2 to 3,000 tons), and destroyers of today are about the size of cruisers of WWII (6 to 8,000 tones).

I actually don’t know how the strongly the nomenclature of today (corvettes, frigates and destroyers) compares to the nomenclature of WWII (frigates, destroyers, cruisers and battleships) and of the age of sail (sloop of war, frigate and man of war). My reference to the frigate of old was not to meant to say more than we should want frigates capable of taking a hit, like the original set of six were able.


62 posted on 04/15/2017 2:28:15 PM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: Redmen4ever

“...original set of six frigates, as they were “heavy frigates.” They were up-gunned relative to other frigates, with especially strong hulls....”

The capabilities of US “super-frigates” of 1812 were not immediately appreciated by the Royal Navy: led to unanticipated US victories in single-ship actions.

Despite that, the Royal Navy maintained overall maritime superiority. Had Old Ironsides (or any US super-frigate) suffered the ill luck to get trapped by RN ships of the line, the US vessel would have vanished in a cloud of splinters.

The armed services cannot resist using older terms to denote modern systems. It might comfort them while things change, but leads to lack of precision.

After the advent of steam propulsion, steel hulls, rifled breechloaders, nitro propellant, HE bursting charges, and mechanical fuzing, no comparison from Age-of-Sail vessels to the modern warships could have meaning. Yet navies persisted in using terms like “frigate,” “corvette,” etc (they still do it).

The term “infantry” is still used, though the footsoldier of 1817 has little in common with the footsolider of 2017.

Lack of precision leads to sloppiness in force support and operations. Brainstorming concepts for future application ought to bring out something better.


63 posted on 04/16/2017 5:56:29 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: schurmann

Perhaps you will concede that the difference between a frigate during the age of sail, and a man of war (or, ship of the line), was more in its design, and as to how fast it was. Not really in how many guns it was rated. When confronted by a man of war, a frigate was to outrun it.

In this regard, the revival of the term “frigate” changed the meaning of the term. It originally referred to a boat capable of independent action (although often deployed in pairs or with a lesser escort). When revived, it referred to an escort. Of course, that was in the mid 20th century. Frigates and Destroyers have gotten a lot bigger, Frigates of today displace the tonnage of Destroyers of WWII, and Destroyers of today Cruisers of WWII. So, I think I’m agreed with you that the terms are not very meaningful longitudinally. Only relative to other ships of the day. In my original post, I only meant to refer to the ability of the original U.S. frigates’ to take a hit. Nothing more.

As for the infantryman. Technologies have changed. But, the basic ability of a foot soldier to march to battle has constrained the weight of his kit. After one and then another revolution in weaponry and so forth, the sheer weight of the infantryman’s kit has remained about the same. Here is an interesting study of British foot soldiers since the Norman conquest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/11011316/Military-kit-through-the-ages-from-the-Battle-of-Hastings-to-Helmand.html

Similar results - in terms of the weight of a man’s kit - are obtained for Greek hoplite militia and Roman soldiers. So, while there has been enormous change, there has also been elements of continuity. And, continuity is a good thing. I can speak for myself about this. It is good for a soldier to feel part of a long line of soldiers.


64 posted on 04/16/2017 6:48:26 PM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: Redmen4ever

“...the difference between a frigate during the age of sail, and a man of war (or, ship of the line), was more in its design, and as to how fast it was. Not really in how many guns it was rated. When confronted by a man of war, a frigate was to outrun it. ...”

The number of guns mounted on any warship of 1800 was no less an aspect of its design than hull form, number of masts, sail square yardage, etc. And that frigate of 1800 (including a US “super frigate” built to Joshua Humphreys’ design) had no option except running away, if it was to avoid annihilation by a line of battle, or even one single ship-of-the-line. That’s why I included the words “IF TRAPPED.”

While the exploits of “Old Ironsides” and the men who served aboard her gave the public a sorely needed morale boost during the war of 1812, Americans need to stop pretending that US naval victories did anything to alter the strategic situation: Britain’s command of the seas. To reiterate Redmen4ever’s Post 47, “lots of frigates like Old Ironsides” would not have been an effective counter then. And it would not be any better, today.

Redmen4ever deserves thanks from the forum, for the link to the UK Telegraph article comparing soldiers’ kit. The imagery and captions ought to give the deep thinkers around here something to gnaw on. I’d seen displays of threat type, but never so many, nor coverage of such a broad interval of time.

The question remains: - as Redmen4ever reluctantly concedes - if the frigate of 1817 cannot be compared longitudinally to the frigate of 2017, why are we still using the same terms? “Traditions comfort us” is not really an answer.

Comparing the private soldier’s kit of today with the kit of earlier times can lead to useful insights, but deep thinkers ought to be similarly wary. Certainly, an infantryman is ultimately constrained by the weight he can carry. But what does this tell us about the capabilities of that individual soldier?

Nothing.


65 posted on 04/20/2017 3:46:54 AM PDT by schurmann
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To: meatloaf

I want a big ship with lots of weapons and tigers too. Tigers would be awesome on a ship. I want a cool looking ship with lots of blinking lights and a sleek profile in the dark. Plenty of guns and barrels of rum too.


66 posted on 05/06/2017 4:10:37 PM PDT by SamAdams76
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To: meatloaf

Anti CVN nuts are out today.


67 posted on 05/06/2017 4:14:02 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: meatloaf

Naval warfare is won at home with a strong industrial base, ship yards lots of shipyards, huge shipbuilding industry, and huge dry docks. We have none of these things.


68 posted on 05/06/2017 4:16:24 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Reily

Once fired there are no 16 inch shell counter measures. It’s going to go where it wants to go.


69 posted on 05/06/2017 4:17:59 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Reily
The ship no longer has the "structural soundness " to stay afloat & fight.

That problem was fixed decades ago. Even frigates can withstand under the keel detonations.

70 posted on 05/06/2017 4:20:26 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va

Good!
Like I said I am not a naval architect.


71 posted on 05/06/2017 4:24:26 PM PDT by Reily
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To: Reily

The keel on modern naval vessels are a honey comb design and the ship no longer splits when hit underneath. Still underwater damage is the worst kind of damage, never a good thing.


72 posted on 05/06/2017 4:28:05 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: meatloaf

Lazers. You can’t go wrong with lazers.


73 posted on 05/06/2017 4:29:05 PM PDT by right way right (May we remain sober over mere men, for God really is our one and only true hope.)
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To: Redmen4ever

I think this is a sound approach. We need to be able to build them quickly and in great number. They need to be able to take a hit and return to port where they can either be used for spare parts for others that are still in the fight, or repaired quickly and returned to service.

They need to be able to be able of moving quickly when needed, but slower and quieter as well. Silence is needed prior to engagement, and speed is needed when the SHTF.


74 posted on 05/06/2017 4:32:02 PM PDT by Lurkus Maximus
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To: right way right

Blue, red or green?


75 posted on 05/06/2017 6:11:12 PM PDT by meatloaf
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To: meatloaf
Whatever color slices and dices aircraft, missiles, and satellites the best.
Bring back the "Star Wars" program from the Reagan era.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative

76 posted on 05/06/2017 10:04:07 PM PDT by right way right (May we remain sober over mere men, for God really is our one and only true hope.)
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To: meatloaf

BFL


77 posted on 05/31/2017 8:10:32 PM PDT by PreciousLiberty (Make America Greater Than Ever!)
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To: PapaBear3625
One nice addition would be a new class of submarine tender which could quickly re-stock an Ohio-class with another batch of Tomahawks.

It has to be a submersible, or it's just another target.

78 posted on 01/08/2019 10:51:57 AM PST by JimRed ( TERM LIMITS, NOW! Build the Wall Faster! TRUTH is the new HATE SPEECH.)
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To: meatloaf

floating automated missile launchers in large numbers


79 posted on 04/23/2019 7:30:53 PM PDT by thoughtomator (The Clinton Coup attempt was a worse attack on the USA than was 9/11)
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To: meatloaf

Well, I figure what the hell does the Navy know. Let’s call on a bunch of cranky old Freepers to tell them how it’s done.


80 posted on 05/09/2019 10:36:59 AM PDT by SamAdams76
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