Could I ask a serious question of some Mormons? (Please?)

No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God"
Doctrines of Salvation, vol. I, p. 190).

My question:
Is that what Mormons believe?
If so, how was anyone saved before 1830.

Oh boy! A whole new can of worms! Pass the opener. :)

"You dismissed the context here:"

What did I dismiss, all I'm talking about is his MOTIVE for requesting wisdom instead of riches etc. He stated why he wanted wisdom very clearly "that I may lead this people". Now one of you guys (I'm not going to bother to check who right now because I am very tired) cited these events as an example of being able to ask for wisdom for unselfish purposes (in a way that indicated asking for wisdom ONLY for unselfish reasons).

I'm saying his motive was not 100% unselfish, he gets the perk of being liked and remembered as a good leader instead of a hated bumbling fool of a king, plus the potential to make wise decisions all through his life. (Having wisdom is not the same thing as having the character to do what is wise as his life shows later on). I would call it a righeous desire, but I wouldn't call it 100% unselfish. Wisdom really is better to have than those other things and he knew that.

Likewise, an unemployed person might pray for the wisdom to find a good paying job. Not because he lusts for material things, but because he desires to use that income in godly ways such as raising his family, giving to charity, and using the power of wealth to do good in the world.

I think people always do what they really belive will benifit them most, but many people have a mistaken ideal of what will benifit them most. People who choose what is right and good do so in part because they have a more correct understanding of what will benifit them most.

What did I dismiss, all I'm talking about is his MOTIVE for requesting wisdom instead of riches etc. He stated why he wanted wisdom very clearly "that I may lead this people".

What you're dismissing is the preceeding and immediate context - the history and the current situation.

Now one of you guys (I'm not going to bother to check who right now because I am very tired) cited these events as an example of being able to ask for wisdom for unselfish purposes (in a way that indicated asking for wisdom ONLY for unselfish reasons).

I think you'll find that task a little difficult. Nobody that I can recall said the passage supported asking for wisdom only.

I'm saying his motive was not 100% unselfish, he gets the perk of being liked and remembered as a good leader instead of a hated bumbling fool of a king, plus the potential to make wise decisions all through his life. (Having wisdom is not the same thing as having the character to do what is wise as his life shows later on). I would call it a righeous desire, but I wouldn't call it 100% unselfish.

That's 100% eisegesis. God said: because what Solomon asked for was wisdom to lead the great people of God [context], and that was his "heart's desire" [direct quote from God], God granted his request and then some. Of course if anyone knows our hearts it's God.

Wisdom really is better to have than those other things and he knew that.

Indeed. Solomon was a man after God's own heart.

Likewise, an unemployed person might pray for the wisdom to find a good paying job. Not because he lusts for material things, but because he desires to use that income in godly ways such as raising his family, giving to charity, and using the power of wealth to do good in the world.

I agree. And 2 Chronicles chapter 1, Matt 7 and Luke 11 are the examples to use in support of that idea.

I think people always do what they really belive will benifit them most, but many people have a mistaken ideal of what will benifit them most. People who choose what is right and good do so in part because they have a more correct understanding of what will benifit them most.

One who truly seeks Gods will for their life will ask God using the basis: will God be glorified if I take this job or that other job. Sometimes the answer is "yes" without a specific answer on which job to take. In that case he leaves it up to us.

I believe the 2 Chronicles chapter 1 passages is the second time the King Solomon story is related to us in Scripture. The first time is 1 Kings 3:5-14, which provide additional details on Solomon's motives in asking for wisdom:

1 Kings 3
5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, "Ask for whatever you want me to give you."
6 Solomon answered, "You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day.
7 "Now, O LORD my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties.
8 Your servant is here among the people you have chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number.
9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?"
10 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this.
11 So God said to him, "Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice,
12 I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.
13 Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for-both riches and honor-so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings.
14 And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life."

It's clear Solomon had a pure heart when asking for wisdom. I'm now revising my earlier statement that 2 Chronicles chapter 1 is the best examples to use when requesting wisdom, as 1 Kings 3:5-14 appears to be the original source.

"Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away"
And I see that as meaning the same thing as "He shall not take it upon himself to take multiple wives." That doesn't rule out HAVING multiple wives, just how they are obtained.

The scripture is clear..you can accept it as the word of God or reject it..

But I will remind you of your own church principle..that prophets do not have to always be right. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were wrong they were not hearing the God that changes not..

You are confusing when a prophet is receiving a relevlation, and when a prophet is giving his personal ideas!

A prophet is NOT 24/7 in that revelation mode.

The Lord did raise seeds up for his own purpose and than the mission was accomplished!

R7 where you missed the point is you keep trying to processe this imformation from the world evaluation, it is impossible to do! Your thoughts need to be elevated are you will be using the wrong tools to arrive at your conclusions! And only the Lord can elevate your thoughts!

You are standing on the earth floor trying to measure when you need to be lifted up to see all that the Lord has shown the prophet!

That is why we ponder, study it out in our mind and pray to the Lord for understanding!

"What you're dismissing is the preceeding and immediate context - the history and the current situation."

I'm not dismissing it, I'm saying that none of it alters the fact that he wanted the wisdom so he could use to lead. God's reply confirms that he wanted wisdom 'to govern my people'.

The argument has been made:

Solomon asked for wisdom for unselfish reasons
God granted the request
Therefore those passages can be used to justify asking God for wisdom ONLY if the reason for wanting wisdom is unselfish.

I'm saying:
Solomon's reasons were not totaly unselfish, but they were a righteous desire, so:

Solomon asked for wisdom to use to fulfill a righeous desire
God granted the request
Therefore those passages can be used to justify asking God for wisdom to use in fulfill a righeous desire

"That's 100% eisegesis"

Saying his motive was not 100% unselfish is no more or less eisegesis than saying Solomon's reasons were 100%unselfish. It is not eisegesis however to say that he wanted wisdom to fulfill a righeous desire.

"I agree. And 2 Chronicles chapter 1, Matt 7 and Luke 11 are the examples to use in support of that idea. "

Yes, and James 1:5 too.

Saying his motive was not 100% unselfish is no more or less eisegesis than saying Solomon's reasons were 100%unselfish.

Since God said it was Solomon's hearts desire and Solomon asked "So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong" is about as selfless as it gets. Somomon respected God's people so much (context) he requested wisdom to lead effectively. That's all it says.

It is not eisegesis however to say that he wanted wisdom to fulfill a righeous desire.

I agree and that's what I've been saying. Your comment: "I'm saying his motive was not 100% unselfish, he gets the perk of being liked and remembered as a good leader instead of a hated bumbling fool of a king, plus the potential to make wise decisions all through his life."

That comment about being liked and remembered as a good leader is eisegesis and can be found nowhere in the text.

"Since God said it was Solomon's hearts desire and Solomon asked "So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong" is about as selfless as it gets."

Could be. We can't really look into his heart and know everything that was there. When I read 1 Kings 3:5-14, I get the impression that Solomon was somewhat afraid of taking on the job. We know what he wanted to use the wisdom FOR because the text clearly states it, we don't know for certain his emotional state. Fear of failure, a desire for some measure of fame, a desire to serve others, they could have ALL been present in him then and provided motivation to ask for what he did.

"Since God said it was Solomon's hearts desire"

God said it was his desire to have "wisdom and knowledge to govern my people" he did not say WHY that was Solomons desire. In other words, there is no indication that Solomon expected some benifit to himself as a result of his request, and no indication that he expected his request to only be a benifit to others. We can't with certainty say it was a totaly unselfish request.

I guess it can also depend how you define what an unselfish act is. One could argue that in a way there really isn't such a thing as a totaly unselfish act. Those that know and live the gospel APPEAR unselfish, but really they just value the blessings that come from behaving that way over what worldly gains they could get by acting differently.

"That comment about being liked and remembered as a good leader is eisegesis and can be found nowhere in the text. "

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that was for a fact how it was, I meant to indicate that it was is a possible situation, so we are not justified calling the request unselfish. Sorry for the confusion.

Fear of failure, a desire for some measure of fame, a desire to serve others, they could have ALL been present in him then and provided motivation to ask for what he did.

That doesn't follow from God's actions. We know what the text says, what Solomon requested and what God granted. We see God responding to Solomon's request in 1 Kings 3:11b. God said Solomon requested "discernment in administering justice." That's what God said of his request.

We also have a list of items from God that Solomon could have asked for but didn't, further demonstrating his selfless request. God said "I will give you what you have not asked for-both riches and honor-so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings."

God said Solomon didn't ask for riches, honor, long life, wealth or the death of his enemies. It's almost like God knew you and I were going to have this discussion. Here is God laying it all out for us. The more we look at this the more selfless his request appears.

We can't with certainty say it was a totaly unselfish request.

With eisegesis you can say anything you want. The record demonstrates a selfless request. Even God said so.

"That doesn't follow from God's actions"

How so.

"We know what the text says, what Solomon requested and what God granted. We see God responding to Solomon's request in 1 Kings 3:11b. God said Solomon requested "discernment in administering justice." That's what God said of his request. We also have a list of items from God that Solomon could have asked for but didn't...God said "I will give you what you have not asked for-both riches and honor-so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings." "

None of that is in dispute.

What I'm saying is that whether his request was ONLY motivated by selfless motives or not, is not specificly addressed in the text. Also, nothing in the context denies that person can ask for the wisdom needed to fulfill any righteous desires, even if not totaly unselfish (ie: wisdom in career choices). Either one of those two things alone is enough for me to object to someone pointing to those verses and saying that it proves that you can ONLY ask for wisdom for unselfish purposes.

"The record demonstrates a selfless request"

What is your definition of what selfless request is?

It seems likely that the nature (and probably the cause) of our disagreement here is the same as with James 1:5, so lets work that one out first if we can then come back to this after. OK?

What is your definition of what selfless request is?

Good question. Pure motives is a good definition as I see it. In this example I'd say the definition is how God summarized Solomon's request: "discernment in administering justice." And I say that because God listed items Solomon could have requested but didn't, and then God granted him so very much more than he requested.

It seems likely that the nature (and probably the cause) of our disagreement here is the same as with James 1:5, so lets work that one out first if we can then come back to this after. OK?

Could be. And coming back to this is fine with me. I'm slowing working the other piece.

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