Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
No one would ever say that he was ' guiltless before the Lord'(Rom.3:23)
The text shows that that 'integrity of the heart' was the direct result of God's restraint.
I do not think so.
It was because of his integrity of his heart that the Lord did not allow him to sin
Ye, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me; therefore suffered I thee not to touch her
In other words, God kept Abimlech's integrity of heart by not allowing him to sin, but it was that integrity of heart was there at the first.
Radical depravity does not mean that man is as bad as he could be but that sin has affected all areas of God's life.
We accept that sin corrupts man.
God can appear to whomsoever he chooses. I would point oiut that Abram was a pagan when God first revealed Himself to him.
And that helps your case how?
The Calvinist view is that one has to be regenerated first before he can have any dealings with God (being a 'dead' spiritual corpse, with no ability to comprehend spiritual matters)
The point of the passage is that God controls/restrains the sinful desires and will of men when it suits His purpose. Who are you or am I to tell Him he can't!!!
Yes, God most certainly restrain sin.
The point that we were trying to make is that spiritual death is not as depicted by the TULIP Calvinists.
Abimelech spoke with God and pled his case with God, this from a man who was 'spiritually dead'.
He did not have to be regenerated first, in order to understand what God was saying.
RnMomof7: "What does this gobbly gook mean?
DISCLAIMER: I BELIEVE THAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, AND NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH THE SON! There is no salvation for anyone who does not confess with his or her mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead. Any view that is attributed to me above and beyond the above statement of faith is false and a lie.
Now, to address your question. God never desired for us to have a relationship with Him only within the confines of humanly constructed beliefs. This is not gobbly gook at all. Question: Does God desire a relationship with us? Of course. Now, are we to only be in a relationship with Him within the confines of humanly constructed beliefs: i.e. do we have to relate to Him only through the constructs of Calvin, Wesley, Arminius, Luther, Augustine, Benny Hinn, or whomever.
Disclaimer number 2: I am not, repeat NOT disregarding these men, their beliefs, their ideas or their accomplishments. I am saying, however, that God Himself is indeed much larger than John Calvin, Martin Luther, St. Augustine, et al. This does not, in any way, shape or form, mean that these men were wrong. Far from it. It does suggest, however, that even taken in total, all the great ideas and great accomplishments from all the greats throughout history, still comes up wholly lacking against the glory and wonder of God, and being in a vibrant and growing relationship with Him.
To really understand my point of view, let me give you a quick reading list of very good (and irrefutably Christian) books that, should you take the oppertunity and read them, will open your world to God, the true God, the real and living God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, in ways that will severly strain your current worldview.
Imitation of Christ by Thomas A Kempis
Revelations of Divine Love by Julian of Norwich
The Cloud of Unknowing
Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster
The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence
either Word into Silence or Christian Meditation: The Gethsemani Talks by John Main.
God is bigger than most Christians give Him credit for.
So, you have no problem continuing the in your disregard of FR's rules?
Amen, ftD.
This verse kills the idea of "ultimate" depravity and upholds "total" depravity. Man is not every bit as bad as he could be, but he is instead spiritually corrupted. This verse proves that the law of God has been written on the heart as Paul says in Romans 2. It proves that that law can be responded to by pagans and that God honors it ... even in our day.
We can only believe that if some pagan in outback aborigine land responds to the law of God in his heart, that God will make sure that a missionary is somehow taken to that area so that the message of Christ can be proclaimed to him/her.
Or, we can believe that if some pagan in outback aborigine land responds to the law of God in his heart, that God will forgive ignorance of Christ when it is not the fault of the aborigine.
SD
Neither is an indisputable fact. Both are assumptions.
I think We agree, however, on this assumption: God will do something. Am I correct?
More or less. But one is based upon God not forgiving someone for being ignorant through no fault of their own. And the other is based on the idea of a merciful God who does not condemn people for things that are not their fault.
I think We agree, however, on this assumption: God will do something. Am I correct?
God always does something.
SD
1 - Because the Heavenly Father said, this is my beloved Son, hear Him.
... and who are the witnesses to this ?
2 - Jesus instructed Joseph in how to restore and set up His Jesus Church here again on earth in these latter-days.
... according to who ?
whim·si·cal adj.
1. Determined by, arising from, or marked by whim or caprice. See Synonyms at arbitrarywhim n.
1. A sudden or capricious idea; a fancy.
2. Arbitrary thought or impulse: governed by whim.ar·bi·trar·y adj.
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.arbitrary
\Ar"bi*tra*ry\, a. [L. arbitrarius, fr. arbiter: cf. F. arbitraire. See Arbiter.] 1. Depending on will or discretion; not governed by any fixed rules; as, an arbitrary decision; an arbitrary punishment.
According to the normal usage of the English language the Calvinistic view of God is the very picture of whimsy.
Matthew 21:9-13
9. The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest!"
10. When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"
11. The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."
12. Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.
13. "It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "Matthew 11:20-24
20. Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
21. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
23. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
24. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."Matthew 23:11-38
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
drstevej: I think this is a valid, practical point.
That point is just as extreme as those who point out that if someone were consistent in their Calvinism then why bother evangelizing at all.
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