Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
THE WRONG TEACHINGS OF MAN
According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."
Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."
Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."
John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."
Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).
"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).
VERSUS THE HOLY TEACHINGS OF GOD
Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.
QUESTION
This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?
Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).
John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).
Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."
James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).
Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."
I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
QUESTION
Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)
Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.
Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).
Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).
QUESTION
Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?
John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."
John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."
Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).
Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"
Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."
Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.
"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).
Please do not lob bombs and run away. Explain what you mean by that statement.
By the way, while you are answering questions, the Bible clearly teaches that the Father predestinates his people. What is the basis of that predestination? Is it based on the sovereign pleasure of God or is it based on something meritorious in man?
This does not say born of the free will of man does it? I think the meaning is clear and I wonder how it is you can not see it xzsins?
I don't mean to offend any Lutheran brethren, but Luther is not someone I'd ever use. He has far too much baggage.
He carries the SAME baggage that Wesley does..
One thing the unregenerate can not believe is the gospel
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Dec were all men without exception saved on Calvery? Does all mean all?
Or does the just God demand double payment for the sins of man?
First the atonment with the death of His son and then with the same sin being paid for a second time in the fires of hell?
It appears that DmWt opposes the bible, doesn't it? It appears that calvinism prefers logic to scripture, doesn't it?
DmWt doesn't want to hear that it's possible to desire your own child's salvation, but realize that God gave the child the right of free choice, so that that child must believe.
Let me ask you, DmWt, this question posed by Hank Kerchief? You have only 2 choices.
According to Calvinism, when a person comes to Christ,
1. Does the person believe?
2. Or does God believe for the person?
Are you familiar with his anti-semitism?
I'll freepmail it to you?
BTW, you and DmWt need to quit attacking me and deal with scripture instead?
Third, it appears that Calvin adopted a peculiar approach to truth, judging from his earlier book, which appeared in 1532. This book was a critical edition and commentary on the Roman philosopher Seneca's work De clementia (“Concerning Clemency”). In this book Calvin demonstrated his scholarly abilities, but also showed that he favored the opinions of the rhetoricians over those of the dialecticians. The dialecticians believed that a statement's truth is best tested by how well it fits into a coherent logical system. The rhetoricians believed that a statement's truth is best tested by its clarity and elegance as well as its persuasive power. (Robert M. Kingdon, “John Calvin,” Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th ed, 1982, Vol 3, p 671)
Calvin's tendency to underplay the importance of logic can also be seen in his Institutes. Here are just three examples from the Institutes where Calvin emphatically states ideas that are logically weak — a sure indication of the rhetorician's approach to truth. First, any discussion of free will is logically related to the subject of divine predestination. However, when Calvin discusses Adam's free will, he claims that it is unreasonable to introduce the subject of divine predestination. It were here unreasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. (Book 1, Chap 15, Sec 8). Second, the idea that human punishment is ultimately based on man's actions is logically contradictory to the idea that it is ultimately based on God's decision. Yet, Calvin states both of these ideas in the same sentence. Though their perdition depends on the predestination of God, the cause and matter of it is in themselves. (Book 3, Chap 23, Sec 8). Third, Calvin states that man makes voluntary choices which are not free. This is an obvious logical contradiction which can be avoided only by adopting a very narrow and inappropriate definition of volition. … a thing may be done voluntarily, though not subject to free choice. (Book 2, Chap 5, Sec 1) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/712991/posts
And so? Does one contradict the other?
When did Christ say the first and then the second statement?
Do you not think that after Christ finished His work on the Cross, the Father now drew 'all men to Him'
Finally, let us look at that deadly Calvinist 'proof-text'
In that same chapter Christ also says,
But I said unto you, that ye also have seen me and believe not,(vs.35) And this is the will that of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him on the last day (vs.39)After that, in vs 45 Christ states
It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father cometh unto meAnd again,
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him
Not understanding the coming death, burial, and Resurrection, it had to be revealed to them by the Father (Matt.16:17).
It was, however, the Father's will that all come to believe on Christ, but they would not and thus they were not 'drawn' even though they 'saw' and 'heard'
Nowhere in that chapter is 'unconditional election' being taught. Vs.40 makes it very clear that everyone who saw Christ, and believed would have everlasting life.
The error of the Calvinists on John 6:44 is two-fold. First, and foremost is the misapplication of a verse with a decidedly Jewish context as a doctrinal statement on salvation in this age. And secondly, in a spiritual sense, there is a the fallacy of making the drawing of God irresistable and equating it with salvation....It seems to have been forgotten by Calvinists that in John 6:44 it is the Father who draws but in John 12:32 it is Christ who draws. No longer would some men be drawn to him by the Father, but Jesus Christ himself would draw all men to himself. (The Other Side of Calvinism, Vance, p.511) Dec were all men without exception saved on Calvery? Does all mean all?
No, all sins were paid for (without exception)
Now, the Lord Jesus Christ holds the keys to death and hell and salvation is found in Him.
Thus, the Calvinists have a weird Kantian view of reality.
If someone is not saved it is not because the gift is not real or incomplete, but because they rejected it.
The Calvinists think that if the gift is rejected, it becomes defective.
Or does the just God demand double payment for the sins of man?
No double-payment, if you reject the free offer of grace, you stand on your own 'merits'.
The issue of 'double jeropady' is an interesting one. It can be argued that at the Great White Throne judgement sins will not be brought up since they were paid for!
What will be brought up are your 'good works' and they will fall short of the Righteousness to come into the presence of a Holy God (Isa.64:6)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God , and the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them and they were judged every man according to their works....and whosoever was not found written in the book of of life was cast into the lake of fire. (vs.15)
Nowhere is sin mentioned as the final critera at the last judgement, works are.
That is why religious people are harder to win then others because they think their works are going to save them (God will not send me to hell, after all, I am not that bad).
Are you now happier being a 'Calvinist' then you were as a Weslyian? You do not seem to be! (Phil.4:4)
Good material for thought. It'll give me something new to consider. Thanks.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
We have used scripture..it is just that when the truth of God's word hit you feel like you have been attacked. THAT is what the word of God does to error..
I am still waiting for you to tell me if all men without exception were saved on calvery.
Are you familiar with his anti-semitism?
I'll freepmail it to you?
BTW, you and DmWt need to quit attacking me and deal with scripture instead?
LOL xzins..I have been giving you scripture (as has Tex )for days...and HOW do YOU respond? With trying to change the topic to slander and away from scripture to deflect your error..
Be consistant ..YOU stick to scripture..(you do this every time you get in doctrinal trouble X..come on lets talk about the Atonment
Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, and Sola Deo Gloria
However, you haven't dealt with a single scrap of scripture mentioned on this post.
You offered John 6:37-39 and I answered it. DmWt then called me a heretic because I didn't agree with him/her and you chimed in.
Come on xzins lets talk about the atonment ..
I say that my sin was what nailed Jesus to the cross and He shed His blood for me personally on that day..without any reservations.
Sir, you merely quote scripture and say it supports a particular teaching. Every doctrine must be reasonable in light of the enttire word of God. When you have been asked to defend your doctrine, you avoid the defense by casting an accusation against me. I guess you want to avoid logic because your doctrine cannot be logically defended. In other words, your doctrine must be unreasonable.
Despite your bomb throwing, I have sought to embrace the Bible and subject what I think I understand to analysis and inquiry. You claim support from the Bible, but seek to avoid any critique of your doctrine. That is very clearly dishonest and dissembling. Then when backed into a corner, you make a personal attack on Martin Luther. Pitiful.
"DmWt doesn't want to hear that it's possible to desire your own child's salvation, but realize that God gave the child the right of free choice, so that that child must believe."
Frankly sir, I have not earthly idea of what you are talking about, nor do I understand how you can claim what I do or do not want to hear. This is your modus operandi, isn't it. Whenever you are forced to defend your teachings, you change the subject, ask an off the wall question to throw your interlocutor off the trail and even inject a personal attack. Again dissembling and intellectually dishonest. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but I am sure nothing could shame you if you are unwilling to defend what you believe.
Let me ask you, DmWt, this question posed by Hank Kerchief?
No, sir. I won't answer any of your questions until you answer the questions that have been posed to your over the past days but you have consistently failed to address. I think you are really afraid to do so because you really don't have any answers.
Just because you started this thread, you cannot dictate the terms of this discussion.
You misrepresent and fair readers will go back over these posts and see that you misrepresent.
Here's the truth. Read it and repent.The Scripture, The truth
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