Posted on 06/28/2002 7:14:32 AM PDT by Michael2001
After more than a year of emotion-inciting display, a controversial billboard proclaiming the pope to be the Antichrist is no longer visible, having been taken down by its sponsor and replaced with a new message regarding days of worship.
Larry Weathers, the Oregon barber responsible for posting the ad, says the media company that owns the space decided to honor a commitment to the Catholic League to remove the message once its term had expired. The contract ended in May, but it wasn't until last week that the pope placard was removed.
"We're happy with the result to a certain extent," said Patrick Scully, director of communications for the New York-based Catholic League. "It's a victory for more civilized discourse."
The original billboard on Interstate 5 just north of Medford, Ore., that sparked the outrage read: "The POPE Is The ANTICHRIST, Free Proof," and provided a website address for more information.
As reported previously by WorldNetDaily, its display had prompted death threats, a national debate over free speech, a Catholic effort to put up a competing message, and a call by Fox News Channel host Bill O'Reilly to take the sign down.
In its place, a new message is now on display, still taking issue with the papacy but in a more subtle way.
It reads, "Saturday, the 7th day – God's SABBATH vs. Sunday worship – the MARK of Rome, read Matthew 15:9." At the bottom, the word "anti-christ" is mentioned only as part of the same website address to get a free book on the issue, but there's no literal mention of the pope, the papacy or the Roman Catholic Church.
"Is this billboard the same message? You bet!" said Weathers. "This billboard is not pointing the finger at the pope; it is uncovering the biggest deception in religion history."
That deception, he claims, has to do with the papacy's changing of God's law regarding the fourth of the Ten Commandments.
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work. ..." is how the King James version of the Bible records the mandate in the 20th chapter of Exodus.
The word sabbath comes from the Hebrew root word "shabbat," meaning to rest, cease or desist. Scholars say the word in Scripture not only refers to the weekly day of rest, but also the annual festivals of God such as Passover and Day of Atonement. It additionally refers to a sabbatical year, and it's the term denoting one week.
The phrase "first day of the week" occurs eight times in the King James translation of the New Testament, mostly dealing with the circumstances of Jesus' resurrection.
In the lexicon of modern society, the debate over which day is holy – that is, set apart to God – goes unresolved by the editors of Webster's New World College Dictionary. While the first definition of sabbath calls it "the seventh day of the week (Saturday), set aside for rest and worship and observed as such by Jews (from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset) and some Christian denominations," its second meaning defines it as "Sunday as the usual Christian day of rest and worship."
Weathers is part of The Rogue Valley Historic Seventh-day Adventists, which is not connected to, and is shunned by, the more well-known Seventh-day Adventists. He says the papacy altered God's instruction, doing away with Saturday sabbath-keeping, and instead enforcing Sunday – the first day of the week – as holy.
In May 1998, Pope John Paul II issued an apostolic letter on the subject, entitled Dies Domini (The Lord's Day). In it, the pontiff refers to the origins of Sunday-keeping.
"In the weekly reckoning of time Sunday recalls the day of Christ's Resurrection," writes the pope. "It is Easter which returns week by week, celebrating Christ's victory over sin and death, the fulfillment in him of the first creation and the dawn of 'the new creation.'"
"Saying 'the pope is the Antichrist' is just insulting and ridiculing," said Scully of the Catholic League. His group lobbied to have Weathers' first billboard removed and to erect its own competing ad, but after learning of the new sign's message, he now considers the matter closed.
"We can live with this," he said. "This falls under the free speech of theological differences as opposed to ridiculing and insulting differences."
Weathers insists he only has love for Catholic people and is simply instructing them on what is stated in the Bible and what has happened in history. He also says the current sexual scandal rocking the Church is just a symptom of deeper flaws.
"The whole thing with priests and pedophiles should have woke people up," he says, "that something is rotten in Rome, that something so 'holy' was so rotten-stinking."
Agreed. Just trying to cover all the bases.
Read Isaiah 22. The significance of the keys will become clear.
Yes, I will do that next time I have my bible out and get off this darn net. And I'm so hungry for that beer chicken I read about on another thread.
Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
That one I don't quite get yet. I did some meditating on it in the past. I did notice that Jesus almost always commanded the apostles or others to do the doing, like rolling away the stone, filling the water pots, baptizing. He did mix the earth with spittle himself . . . and a couple other things. It may have significance in light of what you said. I will have to meditate more on it.
Peter decided that a successor was necessary and Peter determined the method by which that successor would be chosen. Same as today I imagine.
Hadn't considered the precedent of replacing Judas. One would assume that He intended some form of succession, even if the bible isn't terribly exact on that point.
Can't help you there.
We can't know everything, so no problem.
Thanks for the other link. I'll read it asap.
If you do a word study in your Bibles on the word "HORN", you will find that horn ALWAYS refers to "authority". In Bible symbology, the word HORN always denotes the authority of a king or a leader. (Don't take my word for it, check it out in your concordance, it will be a rewarding and enlightening experience!) So...keeping that in mind, let's look at Rev 13:11...
11Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth. He had two horns like those of a lamb, and he spoke with the voice of a dragon.
This beast, the False Man of God, appears to have the AUTHORITY (horns) of the lamb (Jesus Christ), but he speaks like a DRAGON (Satan). This religious leader (Prophet = religious, horns = authority) claims to have the authority of Jesus Christ (the lamb) but in reality, his teachings and proclamations are of the Devil (dragon).
There is one, and ONLY one, well-known personage on the entire earth who claims to have the authority of Jesus Christ, and that is the Roman Catholic Pope.
Reading on in Rev 13...
12He exercised all the authority of the first beast. (the antichrist) And he required all the earth and those who belong to this world to worship the first beast, whose death-wound had been healed.
The political machinations of how the antichrist will be elected "President of the Whole World", are clearly laid out here. A religious LEADER with hundreds of millions of followers will ORDER his subjects to support the antichrist!
Now skip to Rev 17, the famous "Whore of Babylon" who RIDES the first beast (antichrist)... (keep in mind that the church is always refered to as Christ's "BRIDE". This is the OPPOSITE of a "Bride" -- a WHORE) If you read that passage you will see a description of the Whore among which she...
Carries a golden cup, is known for sexual immorality, rules from a city which sits on 7 hills, wears the colors of scarlet (cardinals) and purple (bishops), Is drunk with the blood of the saints (Inquisition), has committed spiritual fornication with the kings of the earth (Only the Roman Catholic Vatican has diplomats and official political relations with the secular governments of the world) etc.
If the End Times are on us SOON, I don't see how these passages could refer to anyone but the Roman Catholic Church and some future pope.
If you will honestly (remember this is mega-serious stuff we're dealing with here) honestly look at how thin and tenuous many of your Bible interpretations offered on this thread, for say, the keys, etc. are, then compare them to the strength and definitiveness of these passages pointing to the pope and the Vatican, I feel the case is overwhelming. The False Prophet to come will be a future Roman Catholic Pope.
Do you want to take time to revise that? Minus the highly relevant "well-known" qualifier, if you read the post and followed the link about the New Age "Maitreya" and Benjamin Creme, there are others who have or are claiming actually to be "Christ." The Theosophists were planning in the 20th-century to present Krishnamurti as "the Christ." He backed out. Numerous people claim actually to be Jesus Christ from time to time. Charles Manson did so. Muslims claim that their boy Mohammed is superior to and above Christ. Protestant faith healers claim to have powers or authority from Jesus Christ. There are any number of New Age cults which claim that Christ, Buddha, Krishna, etc., are just different manifestations of "Masters of Wisdom" or special avatars. Now, each one of these calls into question your highly selective identification of the pope here. You know you don't know for certain that this theory is true. Unless...are you claiming a special private revelation?
If Islam continues to grow and expand internationally, and who knows what kind of postmodern, post-Christian civilization is in store for the future hundreds of years from now, there's a cult with hundreds of millions of devout, deranged, armed followers ready to follow a maniac. They have plenty of false prophets.
There are always nuts who claim to be Jesus. I said a "WELL-KNOWN" (universally accepted) figure who claims to have the AUTHORITY of Jesus. It is part of the Roman Catholic religion, (which has a world-wide following of over a BILLION people!) that the Pope has the AUTHORITY of Jesus Christ. It's part of their dogma and theology.
None of the people you mentioned has authority over anywhere near that many followers. They are also not associated with a golden cup, scarlet & purple, etc. They don't rule from any one particular city, much less one with seven hills. The don't control hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars in assets like the pope, etc.
No offense, but your post was pretty irrelevant to what I laid out. God went through trouble to warn us in advance who the False Prophet would be so we WOULDN'T be fooled.
who knows what kind of postmodern, post-Christian civilization is in store for the future hundreds of years from now,
IN response to what I wrote in #103
If the End Times are on us SOON, I don't see how these passages could refer to anyone but the Roman Catholic Church and some future pope.
It's always a good idea to digest someone's thoughts before you have a knee jerk response to just block what someone else is trying to say.
"OK, you think it's soon and a pope is involved." 106 posted on 6/29/02 9:52 AM Pacific by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Those of your way of thinking always make this egregious error regarding the Catholic Church.
The seven hills are on the east side of the Tiber River where Rome is located. The Vatican, which sits on a hill, is on the west side of the Tiber. If you only include the seven hills, you must exclude the Vatican (the Catholic Church). If you include the Vatican, you dealing with eight hills. In either case you're wrong about the Catholic Church.
The end times were two thousand years ago.
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
The false prophets were two thousand years ago.
Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
These poor guys sure spent a lot of time teaching and repeating and warning their flocks about all these things that weren't going to happen for two thousand years!
As with the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon also has many identifying characteristics which must all be true. All of scripture is inerrant and as scripture applies to the Whore, several main criteria are evident to identify the Whore of Babylon:
So, to identify the RCC as the Whore of Babylon, without conflict with all of scripture, then you must also show how the RCC:
Holding a gold chalice fits well, is necessary, but far from sufficent. I would also point out, that for all its scandalous failings, the RCC still testifies to Christ, however one cares to argue their doctrine. I think the enemy will choose something far more inimical to God and Christ than any mistakes made by the RCC, or any other Christian church for that matter.
Purple robes at Lent, or Archbishops wearing purple seems insufficient, given Cardinals and the Pope have greater authority and don't typically wear purple. Further, other entities wear purple robes and have golden chalices, Wiccans for example, but that doesn't make them the Whore of Babylon either. I suspect Saddam Hussein and some Mullahs, Imams, and Ayatollahs also have purple clothing and golden goblets, but it proves little in and of itself.
In terms of being drunk on the blood of saints, that is an important criteria, but as I've pointed out here, as bad as the Inquisition was, Communism and Islamic Fundamentalism have far more blood on their hands than does the RCC. Further, the Inquisition is past history whereas Islamic fundamentalism continues its slaughter and persecution of Christians to this day and shows no sign of let up.
Babylon likely means Babylon, not Rome. Babylon is in a desert and John was carried away into a desert where he saw the whore (Rev 17:3), whereas Rome is a virtual seaport. 'waters' is generally construed to be a symbol for peoples (as in the 'beast from the sea' is from a population, not an ocean - unless the argument will be made that Daniel's 4th kingdom will physically rise out the Tyrrhenian Sea). If it is insisted that 'waters' means water, then the Euphrates and Tigres (major biblical rivers between which Babylon is situated) will suffice nicely. Further, 'hills' is generally construed as strongholds (power centers, i.e. kings or kingdoms), and scripture clearly states the seven hills were the seven heads or seven kings of the ten-horned beast on which the woman sits (Rev 17:9-10) and this is the explanation given to John by the angel of what John was actually seeing. The angel said "I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and the beast..." (Rev 17:7).
Babylon might refer to Babylon-in-Egypt (renamed Cairo around 870 AD) and 'waters', if construed physically, would be the Nile and it's delta, but considerable research remains on this possibility.
For my money, a best fit against all scripture indicates the Whore might be Islam and the Beast might be OPEC. Islam has killed more Christians (who testify to Jesus) and continues to do so more than anything the RCC might ever have done against fellow Christians. Islam may consolidate its power in Babylon under Saddam Hussein and given Islam's influence over the majority of Islamic nations, and the pre-occupation Islam's terrorism commands from the non-Islamic nations, it could be reasonably argued Islam rules over the Kings of the earth. Over time, as war and terrorism and Islamic radicalism take further toll, Islam's rule may become increasingly true. OPEC presently has 11 members, but one (Venezuala for example) may drop out, and some of its members fit the 'once was, now is not' characteristic. As for coming out of the Abyss... well who knows. OPEC could throw off Islam (...bring her to ruin and leave her naked...) because Islam's radicalism and fundamentalism keeps OPEC nations from developing (i.e. no profit or growth in Islam). A lesser fit might be the Whore is the UN and G10 or 'collected major empires' is the Beast.
I understand how tempting it is to label the RCC as the Whore and the Pope as the False Prophet. But again, in spite of their human failings, they don't fit the criteria. Further, some critria such as John seeing Babylon (and thus the Whore) 'in the desert' can never be satisfied by Rome, even if further RCC scandals come to light in the future.
I have a couple other minor points and questions I may make in subsequent posts.
11Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth. He had two horns like those of a lamb, and he spoke with the voice of a dragon.
Please respond how Islam, for example, claims the authority of Jesus Christ. Thanks
The whole debate about Nero and the pagan Roman empire's torture and slaughter of the early Christians and Church is frequently an issue. Cups are symbols in ancient Judaism as well. Jesus speaks of the "cup" of his own sacrifice and so forth. Various world powers have killed Christians as well.
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