SOME THOUGHTS ON THE VARIOUS MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE, COMMONLY CALLED CALVINISM

"Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when I first received those truths in my own soul - when they were, as John Bunyan says, burned into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in Scriptural Knowledge , through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God.

"One week night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, "How did you come to be a Christian?" I sought the Lord. "But how did you come to seek the Lord?" The truth flashed across my mind in a moment - I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make my constant confession: "I ascribe my change wholly to God." [CH Spurgeon: Defence of Calvinism]

Like Spurgeon, quoted above, the writer was not of the Calvinistic faith when converted to Christ. I only began to be aware even of its existence listening every week to a fellow open air preacher in Belfast who, no matter what his text, always made his way to total depravity?unconditional election etc., At first, I fumed with several others, as my cherished doctrine of freewill * was demolished by this brother. Indeed, we used to encourage him to preach first, but only that we might go out after him "and repair the damage." However, the issue would not go away and I decided to investigate it further. Romans 9 was an obvious passage to go to and I left it very uncomfortable indeed with a forced interpretation which practically denied its central message.

I came to be convinced of the truth of God's sovereignty in salvation largely through reading Iain Murray's book: The Forgotten Spurgeon (Banner of Truth) Since then I have always been an exponent of that system of thought commonly called Calvinism but what is indeed the very heart of the gospel.

There is much that could be (and has been) written about Calvinism but it is not my purpose to go over old ground or duplicate what might be found elsewhere. Those who desire a positive declaration of the Doctrines of Grace should see the following web link to:

These are a series of messages preached at the opening of Spurgeon's Metropolitan Tabernacle in London when a number of men preached on the five points of Calvin.

My intention on this page is to simply set forth a few things which Calvinists do not believe i.e. clear up a few misconceptions. There is a world of difference between Calvinism and hyper Calvinism. I have read quite a number of booklets etc., all setting forth to refute Calvinism when it is obvious that the refuter had not done his home work. The thoughts below might not convince Arminian believers of the truth of these doctrines, but hopefully it will enable them to understand Calvinists a little better.

* The term freewill has many connotations. It should not be opposed per se without having it defined. See below.

We intend generally to give an appropriate quote from Calvin. This is not because we hold him to be of joint authority with the word of God but simply to show that the man himself after whom these doctrines have come to be named (the wisdom of which is debatable - but we are just taking things as they stand) refuted the misunderstandings that are attached to his name. A useful book for Calvin quotations is Calvin's Wisdom by Graham Miller subtitled: An Anthology Alphabetically Arranged and published by the Banner of Truth.

There is an old joke on the go about the Calvinist who fell down the stairs ? and laying somewhat bruised at the bottom praised the Lord and said: "I'm glad that's that over!" Certainly we believe God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11) having ordained whatsoever comes to pass. But this is a far cry from fatalism. Fatalism places the running of the universe into the hands of blind random chance. Calvinists place the running of the universe in the hands of all wise, all loving and all just God. There is a world of difference.

CALVIN: He next adds, Jehovah our God is just in all his works. In this clause the Prophet confirms his former teaching, and the phrase, God is just, appears like rendering a reason for his dealings; for the nature of God supplies a reason why it becomes impossible for anything to happen by the blind impulse of fortune. God sits as a judge in heaven; whence these two ideas are directly contrary to each other. Thus if one of the following assertions is made, the other is at the same time denied; if God is the judge of the world, fortune has no place in its government; and, whatever is attributed to fortune is abstracted from God?s justice. (Commentary on Prophecy of Daniel)

The providence of God, as it is taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous accidents. (Institutes: 1:16:2)

This flows from the above. We believe that men are free agents i.e. they are free to follow the dictates of their own will. We deny, however, that man's will is free in the sense that the will is always dictated to by the heart and man's heart is naturally sinful (Jeremiah 17:9/Proverbs 23:7) Man is the slave of sin and that slavery extends to his way of thinking and acting. But God still holds man responsible for his actions. It cannot be right that because man, through sin, loses his ability to serve or please God that he is no longer responsible to obey God's commands. Judas freely chose his deed in betraying the Lord Jesus, as did the Jewish nation at that time. God holds them both accountable and refers to this in explaining why they were punished accordingly. (Acts 1:25/2:23) If man was a robot or a pawn, then there could not be a hell awaiting him when he died unrepentant. Indeed, he would have nothing to repent of.

CALVIN: The blame lies solely with ourselves, if we do not become partakers of this salvation; for he calls all men to himself, without a single exception, and gives Christ to all, that we may be illuminated by him. (Commentary on Isaiah the Prophet)

3) CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MEN OWE THEIR DAMNATION PURELY TO THE DECREE OF GOD WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO MAN'S OWN SIN:

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that there is such a thing as predestination from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) However some Arminians perceives that the Calvinist thinks that all men were viewed by God as being in a kind of state of neutrality and that He arbitrarily decreed that one would go to Heaven whilst another would go to Hell. This is not so. When God made His sovereign choice before time began, He viewed the whole human race as fallen in sin and so there were no neutrals. He could have left us all to be damned because of our sin and saved none. The wonder of grace is that He decreed to save any. If He was not obliged to save any, then He certainly was not obliged to save all. Spurgeon's maxim stands true: Salvation is all of grace?damnation is all of sin.

CALVIN: [The Reprobate] are not induced to sin, as the faithful are to act aright, by the impulse of the Spirit, but they are the authors of their own evil, and follow Satan as their leader. [Commentary on Genesis]

Such blinding and hardening?must be ascribed exclusively to the depravity of man. (Commentary on Isaiah the Prophet)

4) CALVINISTS DO BELIEVE THAT ALL MEN ARE DUTY BOUND TO REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL:

Granted that there are some who call themselves Calvinists (but are in reality hyper Calvinists) who deny what is called duty faith and duty repentance. Since the Lord Jesus began to upbraid those cities wherein His mighty works were done because of they repented not (Matthew 11:20) and since the Holy Spirit reproves or convinces the world of sin because it believes not on Christ (John 16:7-9) we conclude that man, although unable to believe/repent in himself without divine strength (because of sin), is held fully responsible and therefore has a duty. If the sinner perceives himself here to be "caught between a rock and a hard place" ? then isn't it time that he cried out to the Lord to save him? God says: Let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me? (Isaiah 27:5)

CALVIN: It is the ordinary practice of Scripture, whenever redemption is mentioned, to exhort to repentance. (Commentary on Isaiah)

Again, although there are hyper Calvinists who deny either verbally or by their actions that evangelism is unnecessary, yet true Calvinists will seek "by all means to win some" The great evangelists whose praise is still in the churches were Calvinists e.g. George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, Robert Murray McCheyne, John Bunyan etc., (to name but a few) William Carey, who has been called the Father of modern missionary endeavour, was a Calvinist. We evangelise because [1] it is commanded of God (Mark 16:15 etc.,) and [2] because God who has ordained the end (the ingathering of His elect) has ordained the ends thereto (evangelism). As above, we are not fatalists.

CALVIN: God commands the gospel to be preached indiscriminately to all. (Commentary on Genesis)

The writer once heard an Arminian preacher take up a comment of Spurgeon along this line. When Spurgeon first met his wife to be, she had not yet openly confessed the Lord, but was showing evidences of grace. Spurgeon said that he perceived that she was already a Christian. Now, out of the many ways Spurgeon could have worded this e.g. I knew she was a Christian?I knew she was born again?I knew that she belonged to Christ?or was in union with Him etc., he worded like this: I knew that her name was in the Lamb's Book of Life. This comment was produced as evidence that Calvinists claim to have access to the Lamb's Book of Life. Silly isn't it? Admittedly I have only ever heard one frustrated preacher at it, but let us lay that spectre to rest. We don't?at least not before they profess faith in the Lord Jesus. Then we can urge them to make their calling and election sure.

CALVIN: As we cannot distinguish between the elect and the reprobate, it is our duty to pray form all who trouble us, to desire the salvation of all men. (Commentary on Psalms)

Again, hyper Calvinists will only offer Christ to those whom they discern to be spiritually awakened enough to receive it, but true Calvinists will offer Christ freely to all men, assuring all that there is salvation if they will prevail of it. Whitefield's sermons and Spurgeon's are full of gospel invitation without any limitations of any kind. Here is how Arthur Pink closed one sermon preached in 1927:

Why not believe in him for yourself? Why not trust his precious blood for yourself, and why not tonight? Why not tonight, my friend? God is ready, God is ready to save you now if you believe on him. The blood has been shed, the sacrifice has been offered, the atonement has been made, the feast has been spread. The call goes out to you tonight. 'Come, for all things are now ready.' (Studies in the Scriptures 1927)

We note how Paul in his great sermon in Acts 13 made good use of the phrase "unto you" when preaching, including those great words of v38:

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Yet we read that many to whom these words were spoken rejected them. Here is indiscriminate preaching at its best.

CALVIN: The gospel is to preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate? (Commentary on Isaiah)

God offers his word indiscriminately to the good and bad? (Commentary on Ezekiel)

Stephen said so: Ye stiff snecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:53) There is a time when the Spirit of God stops striving with men (Genesis 6:3) and this is when they resist His convictions and He "leaves them alone in their darkness to dwell" But we believe that the elect cannot always resist Him - that there comes a time when the Spirit prevails and they are born again. We call this irresistible grace.

Let me point out something here. When Arminian Christians offer up petitions to God for the lost: "Lord, save my love ones?" etc., they are praying Calvinistic prayers. Arminianism effectively teaches that God has done everything that He can do since He cannot interfere with man's free and sovereign will. Calvinism teaches that God needs to do everything and we can consistently ask Him to do more and save our lost ones etc., Thank God for inconsistent Arminians! Keep praying!

CALVIN: God?closes up the way of salvation against those who spurn the Holy Spirit, the only true guide. (Commentary on Hebrews)

Spurgeon answers this misconception (which he calls among other things: the wicked calumny and the basest lie ever uttered):

We say, with regard to infants, Scripture saith but very little, and, therefore, where Scripture is confessedly scant, it is for no man to determine dogmatically. But I think I speak for the entire body, or certainly with exceedingly few exceptions, and those unknown to me, when I say we hold that all infants are elect of God and are therefore saved, and we look to this as being the means by which Christ shall see of the travail of his soul to a great degree, and we do sometimes hope that thus the multitude of the saved shall be made to exceed the multitude of the lost. Whatever views our friends may hold upon the point, they are not necessarily connected with Calvinistic doctrine. I believe that the Lord Jesus, who said, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven," doth daily and constantly receive into his loving arms those tender ones who are only shown, and then snatched away to heaven. Our hymns are no ill witness to our faith on this point, and one of them runs thus:

"Toplady, one of the keenest of Calvinists, was of this number. ?In my remarks,? says he, ?on Dr. Nowell, I testified my firm belief that the souls of all departed infants are with God in glory; that in the decree of predestination to life, God hath included all whom he decreed to take away in infancy, and that the decree of reprobation hath nothing to do with them.? ? John Newton, of London, the friend of Cowper, noted for his Calvinism, holds that the children in heaven exceed its adult inhabitants in all their multitudinous array. Gill, a very champion of Calvinism, held the doctrine, that all dying in infancy are saved. An intelligent modern writer, (Dr. Russell, of Dundee) also a Calvinist maintains the same views; and when it is considered that nearly one-half of the human race die in early years, it is easy to see what a vast accession must be daily and hourly making to the blessed population of heaven." (CHS Sermons Vol 7:385)

As Spurgeon rightly observes, the scripture says very little about the subject at all and so we cannot be dogmatic, but I believe that the whole tenor of Scripture would point us in the direction that little children dying in infancy are saved.

I must omit any reference to Calvin as I am unable to find any definitive reference to this subject one way or the other. I am pretty sure that if he had written one way or the other, Mr Spurgeon would have commented accordingly.

10) CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE "5 POINTS OF CALVINISM" ARE ALL THAT THERE IS TO BE KNOWN ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD:

The so called 5 points were not "highlighted" by Calvinists at all but by Dutchman Jacob Arminius who lived in 17^th Century Holland. Arminius challenged the truthfulness of these doctrines and subsequently it is here the theological battles have raged. Of course there are Calvinists who cannot see beyond these particular doctrines, just as there are Dispensationalists who cannot see beyond Bible prophecy or Wesleyans who cannot see beyond the doctrine of the Second Blessing etc., Every doctrine has its adherents who live and breathe nothing else. That in itself does not make any doctrine wrong. The great classic theological works written by Calvinists cover pretty extensively other subjects. They are balanced and there is no evidence that all roads lead to unconditional election or particular redemption. Dr Paisley commented once that we should not be taken up just with the 5 buttons, but preach the whole garment and there is a lot of balance and wisdom in that comment.

Since the 5 points controversy followed nearly two centuries after Calvin's death, obviously we cannot find any reference to it as such in his writings. It is evident however from the massive selection of Bible commentaries which we have on many of the various parts of scripture that Calvin believed in preaching the whole counsel of God. Even Jacob Arminius who vehemently opposed his teachings wrote:

Next to the perusal of the Scriptures. Which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin's commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms that Helmich himself: for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the Library of the Fathers: so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above all others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent gift of prophecy." (Quoted by CH Spurgeon in Commenting and Commentaries)

It must be said that there are those who think that unless the preacher asks the congregation at the end of the sermon to "bow their heads and close their eyes" and put a hand in the air if they want to be saved and come to the front to the strains of "Just as I am without one plea" then there was no appeal. This is not so. Some preachers are not comfortable with such procedures, but they will still urge and plead with sinners to be saved. True, there are hyper Calvinists who do not make urgent verbal appeals, but true Calvinists will employ language such as used by Arthur Pink above.

CALVIN: Yet it is highly useful to us, that the Evangelist introduces Christ exclaiming aloud, Let all who thirst come to me. For we infer from it that the invitation was not addressed to one or two persons only, or in a low and gentle whisper, but that this doctrine is proclaimed to all, in such a manner that none may be ignorant of it, but those who, of their own accord shutting their ears, will not receive this loud and distinct cry. (Commentary on John's Gospel)

12) CALVINISTS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ONCE YOU ARE SAVED, YOU CAN LIVE AS YOU LIKE AS YOU CANNOT BE LOST:

Again a good doctrine has been abused and the abuse is held up as the genuine article. Calvinists believe that once a man is saved, the evidence will be holiness in the life. Christ saves His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21) A man who professes to be saved but insists on living like the devil is only evidencing how deluded he is and how false his profession.

CALVIN: No man?is a believer who is not also a saint?no man is a saint who is not a believer." (Commentary on Ephesians)

None of the Calvinists here on this board would dispute the fact that the gospel is freely offered to all, indeed, is freely required of all, since "God commands all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30).

But that isnt the end all. The ultimate question is why are some saved and some not. Why do some repent and some not? The essence of the Reformation was this central fact: that God's will is sovereign, and that it is by His grace alone that we are saved. Passages like Romans 9:18 state, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

The Reformed understanding is best encapsulated in John 6:37 -- "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." The first half emphasizes the sureness of the election of the Father -- that those he elected will come to Christ. The second half emphasizes the free offer of the gospel-- that whoever comes to Christ will be accepted. Not only is this the essence of Calvinism, this is the essence of Christianity. You reject it at your soul's peril.

Meaningless, Calvinistic double-talk! Man is required to do something, he is unable to do.

It even makes your god more of a fiend! Now, your god becomes a sadist punishing man for something that man is unable to do!

Hey, I've seen that verse before!

Did you know that those verses are talking about Israel and not individual salvation?

Have you seen 1Tim.2:4? Or how about Jn.3:16? Or, 2Pet.3:9?, Jn.2:2,?Heb.2:9? I guess not!

Hey, you forgot Jn.12:32-When Christ was lifted up He said He would draw all men to Him!

Oh, that's right, now we go into the two wills of God, where the Father really knows what is going to happen, but the 'poor' Son, He thinks that all men are actually savable!

Did you know that Calvin stated that ignorance is learning? Now,that is the essence of Calvinism!

Let it, therefore, be our first principle that to desire any other knowledge of predestination than that which is expounded by the word of God, is no less infatuated than to walk where there is no path, or to seek light in darkness. Let us not be ashamed to be ignorant in a matter in which ignorance is learning. Rather let us willingly abstain from the search after knowledge, to which it is both foolish as well as perilous, and even fatal to aspire. If an unrestrained imagination urges us, our proper course is to oppose it with these words, "It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory," (Prov. 25: 27.) There is good reason to dread a presumption which can only plunge us headlong into ruin. Calvin, Institutes, 3:21.2

I did find the quote(s) and put them into context as noted below.

==== I wanted to give the exact quote on what Calvin said regarding ignorance. Calvin said, speaking on Predestination, Let us not be ashamed to be ignorant in a matter in which ignorance is learning(Institutes,3:21.2) and, Ignorance of things which we are not able, or which is not lawful to know, is learning (Institutes,3:23:8) Now, that fear of ignorance did not stop Calvin from making dogmatic, non-biblical statements on predestination. Ignorance is learning! In Calvinism that makes sense! The more Calvinistic you become, the more ignorant you are of scripture!

This is the full quote in context. An interesting quote and in my opinion advice that is well worth heeding!

Yes, it would have been good advise for Calvin to take!

Instead, he wants to use the mystery of predestination to disarm his own critics who demand proof for such a horrid, God-dishonoring doctrine as put forth by the Calvinists.

So, when legimate questions are raised about predestination (reprobation) the final defense is, we understand it, you do not, do not pry into things that you ought not to.

Calvinistic predestination is not found in the Bible thus, Calvin had to make appeals to the secret counsels and his ignorance is learning defense.

For all you Calvinists out there, just accept the contradictions like any good Muslim would

And the Calvinist freely admits that his position is illogical, ridiculous, nonsensical and foolish (Palmer,Five Points, p.85)

But you are to reject clear scripture which teaches otherwise.

You're acting under the assumption that God is obligated to save anyone: he is under no obligation to save sinners except those obligations he has taken upon himself by saying "He who comes to me I will in no wise cast out." He does not punish man for what he is unable to do; rather for what he refuses to do -- accept Christ as Savior. Man is evil to the core -- "there is none righteous, no, not one.... there is none that seeketh God." This is the natural state of man -- unable to even respond to God.

Once we realize that God does not owe salvation to anyone, and that its only because of his grace and mercy that he offers it to anyone, everything else falls into place. Too often, we Christians take the offer of salvation for granted because we've heard it so frequently-- but we need to remember how awesome it really is, what a tremendous gift it is.

In summary, God is under no obligation except those he freely undertook, to save any man -- we all deserve hell because of our rebellious sinfulness. To save any -- even just one -- is an act of unspeakable grace. The Potter, then, is free to do as he chooses -- to make vessels fitted for wrath, and vessels prepared for mercy. "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth."

If you keep misquoting Calvin we will be forced to quote Wesley

Did you know that those verses are talking about Israel and not individual salvation?

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Do you deny that God chose Jacob while he was in the womb? Does scripture lie here? This chapter speaks to Gods sovereignity and the way he acts. God elects Nations and individuals

Are nations not made up of individuals ? Does your God lie?

Have you read Ephesians?

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Do you deny that God chose Jacob while he was in the womb?

That is correct, He chose Jacob as representing the nation that He would bless.

Note that the choice occured in time and not in eternity.

Note also that it had nothing to do with salvation

Does scripture lie here? This chapter speaks to Gods sovereignity and the way he acts. God elects Nations and individuals

Yes, God does elect both nations and individuals but never to salvation, unless faith if foreseen (1Pet.1:2)

Are nations not made up of individuals ? Does your God lie?

Nations (Edom and Israel) were foreseen in their destines, which had nothing to do with individual salvation, which is what your own Calvinist theologian conceded in my post on Romans 9.

Have you read Ephesians? Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Gee, I see predestination to adoption which comes after salvation.

I see chosen in Christ, so no one is chosen unless they are in Christ and how do you get in Christ? Through faith in Christ.

Then, God choses you to be adopted, and conformed to His image (Predestination)

All of those are foreseen by God, not forordained through unconditional election (which is nowhere in the Bible)

Meaningless, Calvinistic double-talk! Man is required to do something, he is unable to do. It even makes your god more of a fiend! Now, your god becomes a sadist punishing man for something that man is unable to do! You're acting under the assumption that God is obligated to save anyone: he is under no obligation to save sinners except those obligations he has taken upon himself by saying "He who comes to me I will in no wise cast out."

I wonder if you guys even read what you write! He who comes to me, I will in no wise cast out when no one can come to Him unless God elects them first?

He is under no obligation to save anyone? The question isn't obligation, but what does He want and scripture teaches He wants all men to be saved. Hence, your running to secret counsels and two wills to explain away clear Scripture for a false philosophical supposition.

He does not punish man for what he is unable to do; rather for what he refuses to do -- accept Christ as Savior. Man is evil to the core -- "there is none righteous, no, not one.... there is none that seeketh God." This is the natural state of man -- unable to even respond to God.

Why is man unable to respond to God?

Because God put in that position.

That is why you now have to run to your potter defense.

And then your Rom.9:20 defense.

You have no scriptural basis for what you believe, only a deep seated mysticism that comes full circle with the conclusion that God is God and can do anything He wants (despite what Scripture says He wants to do).

No different then any Muslim would state.

Why don't you guys ever start at the beginning. How did man find himself in this sinful state? It was God's will wasn't it! (see Rom.9:20 coming?)

And this was our state before we were made alive by the work of the Holy Spirit. "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." (Eph 2:1). (Full disclosure: the phrase "hath he quickened" was interpolated by the translators, but is the sense of the context and is clearly taught in v. 5. Thus, the point still stands.) In summary, God is under no obligation except those he freely undertook, to save any man -- we all deserve hell because of our rebellious sinfulness. To save any -- even just one -- is an act of unspeakable grace. The Potter, then, is free to do as he chooses -- to make vessels fitted for wrath, and vessels prepared for mercy. "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth."

Typical Calvinistic mantra, meaning nothing.

According to Calvinism Man is a sinful state because God placed him in that state.

Man cannot respond to the Gospel, because God did not choose him

Man is going to Hell, because God chose not to save him.

God could have saved everyone but chose not to? Any reasons for that?

Is it time for the secret counsel defense yet?

You have no answers just an endless series of wrenched out of context proof-texts that do nothing to remove Calvinism from making God the author of sin and death.

Did you know that ignorance is learning ?

I wonder if you guys even read what you write! He who comes to me, I will in no wise cast out when no one can come to Him unless God elects them first?
He is under no obligation to save anyone? The question isn't obligation, but what does He want and scripture teaches He wants all men to be saved. Hence, your running to secret counsels and two wills to explain away clear Scripture for a false philosophical supposition.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

He will not cast out any that come to Him dec..those that come are sent by the Father..

According to Calvinism Man is a sinful state because God placed him in that state.

Man is spiritually dead because of the choice of Adam..God gave Adam free will..and Adam chose to sin..and mans will has never been free since. Mans will is in bondage to sin. That is why man will never freely choose God. He can not. His will is in bondage. ONLY Gods grace can free mans will and restore it to a true free will. Once it has been freed man desires God ,and freely chooses Him

Do not attribute the sin of Adam to God..

Man is going to Hell, because God chose not to save him.

Man is going to hell because man chooses to go to hell. No one will be in hell that does not deserve it or that does not choose it.. Spurgeon's maxim stands true: Salvation is all of grace?damnation is all of sin.

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