Posted on 05/05/2002 11:30:36 PM PDT by nickcarraway
by Mark Shea
How I Changed My Mind About Mary
5/6/02
It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that.
No Mary, No Salvation
People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.
However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.
Too Much vs. Just Enough
This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).
Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.
St. Luke? Is That You?</>
So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
There. That didn't hurt a bit. In fact, I think I heard St. Luke pray it too!
No more; no less.
Waiting...waiting...waiting...
Your post is non-responsive to my post in far more ways than I care to list only to have you then misunderstand them again. For example you assume I do not believe the Trinity. You are not only wrong in this, you are irrational in making such a deduction.
Your conclusions of what Gabriel's words "full of grace" mean are a textbook case of eisegesis. (i.e. reading your meaning into the text.)
NIck, your response to me is "Full of misunderstanding". That means there is a lot of it. It doesn't mean there are no points where there is some understanding. ---Catch the parallel?---
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Please, either drop this discussion or be more responsive and logical, or I'll drop the subject.
On Martin Luther's tombstone in Wittenberg is a bronze plate with a life-size depiction of Luther with a Bible and the Family Crest. This is located at the south wall.
To the right of this, is located "The Coronation of Mary," a bronze plate created in 1521 by Peter Fischer the Younger. This plate is the tombstone for Henning Goden, Jurist and last Catholic Provost of the Castle Church.
The members of the Church should pray for one another. Thus the traditional Christian practice of also asking those members of the Church who are in the presence of Our Lord, such as His mother, to pray for us. "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." (James 5:16)
Not to one another.
Did I claim that we should? All I pointed out is that it is a mistake to state that Mary is dead, and that the traditional Christian understanding of the communion of the saints (which includes Mary) is founded on the priniciple that the members of the Church should pray for one another. Thus, traditional Christians - such as the members, like myself, of the Orthodox Church - believe that the living saints that have passed through death should pray for us, just like I should pray for my wife.
I will say that we should not worship any one but God alone. "Pray" is a much more nebulous word though. According to Merriam-Webster, it means both:
"to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving," AND...
"ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea "
Even in Scripture, it's used in it's more casual form:
Ac 8:34 - And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?"
Lu 14:18 - But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it; I pray you, have me excused.'
When a traditional Christians speak of praying to the saints, they mean praying in the more casual sense. Asking. Specifically, asking for them to pray for us.
How am I non-responsive? I gave you scripture and you said scripture is ``conjecture.''
For example you assume I do not believe the Trinity. You are not only wrong in this, you are irrational in making such a deduction.
I actually assumed you believed in the Trinity, but I didn't want to offend you. How is belief in the Trinity not ``conjecture, '' as you put it. (I apologize for any offense;it was not intended)
Your conclusions of what Gabriel's words "full of grace" mean are a textbook case of eisegesis. (i.e. reading your meaning into the text.)
But you don't read your meaning into the text. You know exactly what God means, including when He gives us another meaning? NIck, your response to me is "Full of misunderstanding". That means there is a lot of it. It doesn't mean there are no points where there is some understanding. ---Catch the parallel?---
I catch the parallel, but unfortunately you are notvusing the word correctly. Full means: 1. containing as much or as many in number as is possible 2. entirely 3. the utmost extent. The sense you are using the word full above is slang. The angel Gabriel was using slang on this most solemn and important occasion? Please, either drop this discussion or be more responsive and logical, or I'll drop the subject.
I think I'm being logical and responsive, but if you have to drop it...
The definition of Mary as Theotokos (Bearer of God) is a guarantee of a correct understanding of the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ.
She was His mother, right?
He is God, right?
Then, ipso facto, she is the Mother of God. Or, do we have Nestorians and Arians amongst us who just cannot ascribe complete divinity and humanity to the Incarnate God?
Christos Voskrese!
Christ is Risen!
Yes, WS. But, we again have to get back to the definition of "church." Many folks have no idea of what the RC call the "communion of the saints." We Orthodox do not have a similiar snappy phrase, but we share the sentiment.
Many folks think of the church as an earthbound institution. Strange, since Holy Scripture, which is their standing ground, says that the Church is the Body of Christ.
John 1:14 And the Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
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These are the same greek expressions. Your logic would conclude that Stephen should be added to the list with Mary as those exempted from the taint of Original Sin.
QUESTION: What does full of grace mean in these two verses that makes sense to say of BOTH Stephen and Jesus? Surely it is not sinlessness, for that only pertains to Jesus. Answer this, and I think the statement of Gabriel will be clear to you.
Best wishes, Steve
The problem with your explantion, you know, is that "kexaritwmevn" in Greek is ONE word that means "favored one" (favorite?). The words "full" as you use it is a different Greek word....plevnw, I think. It doesn't appear in the text...not the one that I have, anyway.
Since we're Stephen's namesakes it's great to know he was "full of grace."
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