How long.... will you have to repeat it, I wonder?
Those that intend to work their way to heaven will be judged by their works and because of that they will have plenty of time to say it over and over as they shovel coal
Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Those that intend to work their way to heaven will be judged by their works and because of that they will have plenty of time to say it over and over as they shovel coal
I have no problem with "hard" evangelism. Rebuking ideas is fine and dandy with me. Insulting is not rebuking.
like this?
Mat 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Neither is "get saved" rebuking
Peter was not afraid of rebuking
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart..."
, or showing someone the error of their doctrine.
Correct doctrine is not an Biblical option
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Neither is "read the Bible" a statement of theological truth.
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
They are simple jabs and are no part of the evangelical process. Does the "get saved" make an individual say, "Hmm, I wonder if I am a member of the body of Christ?" Does "read the Bible" truly encourage the hearer to spend more time in the Word? Just my $.02
We have come into an age where people believe THEY save people . They believe that if i am just nice and tolerant eventually people will want to be become like me . But no where is that method taught in the bible. What we do see there with consistence is confrontation on sin and false doctrine . We do see that the word of God is used as the vehicle used to bring one to faith .We do see that God has no brief for false doctrine and not only condemns it but uses heresies to point out the false followers.
One thing that a spirited debate does is cause people to go to the word to verify what they believe ,that act alone can make someone do a Ahhhh haaaaaaa I was wrong and even if they are loath to admit it on a forum , their conscience is pricked and they will be forced to confront it personally if not publicly.
As to do some people need to wonder if they are a member of the body..perhaps that is something that they may need to consider. The uncertainty may be the Holy Spirit convicting them. The parable of the wheat and the tares points out that the visible church is full of weeds .
The disciples had no fear of people leaving the new church as they felt that those that left were never "of " them to start with or that the heresy that they taught or believed was useful in that it separated the wheat from the tares.,
Today the church too often values relationship over truth. Too often today it is considered more loving not to confront sin or false doctrine .
808, when we come to realize that we are only tools in the hand of God and that it is HIS grace that saves and not us , we can become less fearful that we will make a "mistake " and cause someone to be lost.
I do understand that sometimes an answer can be curt and sound uncaring. But we are after all imperfect men .If they did not care they would not bother
Just my $.25 (inflation:>)
I have a Mac , you will find out that the one click does everything and more than a standard mouse. Look at the drop down menu.
I recently put a new OS on my Mack..and I bought a new mouse. They did not have the black Mack one that I have so I bought a double clicker . It took weeks for me to get used to the stupid thing again . Like most Mack users i love my Mack:>)
The disciples and apostles do not agree with your spiritual body teaching .
Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Paul has been teaching of a physical resurrection. Paul is writing to a predominantly Greek church. If Paul was merely speaking of a non-physical resurrection which, to a Jew, is a contradiction of terms, it is it is very unlikely he would have been met with skepticism. As the Greeks already believed in the immortality of the human soul. Their skepticism was reserved for the Jewish belief in a physical resurrection.
Jewish teaching use the analogy of a seed to explain the connection between the old body and the new one following the resurrection.
The basis for the teaching on the seeds by Jesus .
Armstrong was wrong here too
1Co 15:35-38 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
Paul regularly uses the term soma"to describe what is resurrected. The use of this term, implies the physical and it establishes Paul's belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus and of Christians.
He was mostly preaching to Greeks that denied a bodily resurrection (unlike the Jews)That Greek skepticism of physical resurrection was at the problem and becomes clear as Paul goes on to address another question raised by those who reject his doctrine of the resurrection what kind of body would a resurrected body be?
The question is not about life after death that was easily accepted by Greeks as a spiritual resurrection, but the idea of a physical resurrection itself was absurd to the questioner. The fact that Paul is having to argue what kind of soma was raised strongly suggests that he had previously taught, and was defending ..the doctrine of a physical resurrection.
Armstrong was wrong here too
So it was Gods intent to keep Adam guessing. The day was created as a measurement of time FOR MAN. The bible is written for man . Adam knew what a day was, God had no reason to be deceptive to Adam. He wanted Adam to understand the covenant .
It can and does refer to a period of time. To God, a day is a thousand years:
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
This would be a pretty good proof text except this is speaking about the return of Christ and it being a mystery . It was simply saying that return of Christ was not eminent. That is a figurative rendering and intended to let the reader know that God will return in HIS time. God is timeless. He does not have a need to measure time as He lives outside of it
A day is a day
And how long did Adam live?
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Is that a thousand years? Or is it 930 years ?
Adam did indeed die in the very day that he ate. God was not lying. Satan lied. God told Adam the truth. Satan twisted the truth of God and told Adam that he would not die.
But you just said that Satan was correct that Adam did not die on that day. I believe that he ate of the fruit because he saw eve physically alive , and did not fear death.
If not was God lying or did God consider Adam and Eve as spiritually beings first and physical beings second ?
Where do you see any indication that Adam and Eve were spiritual? Where does the word "spirit" or "spiritual" ever appear when referring to Adam and Eve in the bible? Chapter and verse please.
Are you saying that they were just another animal in the garden? I asked you what does it mean to be created in Gods image. Is it that God has hands and feet , a body like ours?
The problem is that Armstrong taught gnosticism so it the body is evil and the spirit is good then creatures that were spirits would by your reckoning not sin
All of Christianity understands that To be created in the image of God represents having a spiritual nature like Gods. Man was set apart from the other creatures by that spiritual nature. He could have fellowship with God.
Man was created by God in God's image. Man was a spiritual being. He was alive spiritually and had fellowship and communion with God his creator. Then spiritual death entered the life of man. When man rebelled against God's instructions he became a partaker of the satanic nature. That nature is spiritual death. The reign of spiritual death began with Satan.
Ephesians 2: 2-3 says, "Where in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." We have been taught that man is a sinner by nature, but it is more than that. Man is now by nature a child of wrath and his life was ordered by Satan. (ye are of your father the devil) That sin is passed to all of the descendants of Adam
Romans 5: 13, 14. "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
I might ask you the same question. God said Adam would die. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says anything about it being a spiritual death. Anything you insert in there is theory.
Adam and Eve had fellowship with God . But if you are making them creature that has no spirit then that fellowship would have been impossible
Genesis 3:8, "And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden." Genesis 3:10' " And he said "I heard the sound of Thee in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." Man no longer responds to or sought the call of God. Fellowship has been broken. He responded to the call of his new master, Satan.
Can an animal make a moral choice? Can an natural man or animal understand the Law or covenants with God? Can a man without a spirit sin?
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
The covenant in the garden was spiritual.
God did not tell them that they would die spiritually. He told them they would die period. They were mortal in the firt place, made out of the dust of ground. They did not have eternal life.
I disagree. Before there was sin there was no physical death. As I said before The tree of life was in the garden and they never felt the need to eat of it. Once they sinned they died spiritually no longer wanting a relationship with God and they would now die physically because of their offspring would no longer be made ater the image of God /
Where does it say they were created with eternal life? The bible is abundantly clear that nobody has eternal life except those who accept Christ:
Doug think about this for a minute. If man had not sinned Christ would not have been necessary. They lost their "eternal " PHYSICAL life and Christ came to return what the sin had cost man . Christ restored the spiritual life ( relationship with God) and the eternal physical life (in the resurrection) Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Exactly
You perish if you don't have eternal life.
Men are born perished.
How can something made out of the dust of the earth be eternal without accepting Christ?
Doug do you really not understand this Christ came because Adam sinned.We need Christ because of Adams sin.
If Adam had not sinned and died Spiritually and physically the atonement would not have been necessary
Adam and Eve were like us. As long as they remained sinless they were promised eternal life. They couldn't do it, but God knew that would happen which is why he created us of temporary material.
Doug we are made out of exactly what Adam and Eve were and without sin they would not have aged or gotten sick or died . Armstrong's gnosticism blinds you to the truth that one day our bodies , physical bodies will be raised once again as they were at the creation. God through Christ will restore all things.
. Where does it say anything about them having "spiritual" communion with God? Chapter and verse.
God walked and talked with Adam in the garden. They had fellowship. God made a covenant with Adam .
God is a spirit:
Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Since we are created in God's image, then God's spiritual body must resemble our physical human bodies,
Doug a Spirt has no form . It does not have arms and legs..God is omnipresent where would his legs take Him? God wishes to reveal Himself to us , so that we may understand Him . To do that God inspired the writers of the Scriptures to use words and descriptions men could relate to and understand .They are called Anthropomorphism.
The act of attributing human forms or qualities to entities which are not human. Specifically, anthropomorphism is the describing of gods or goddesses in human forms and possessing human characteristics such as jealousy, hatred, or love.
Mythologies of ancient peoples were almost entirely concerned with anthropomorphic gods. The Greek gods such as Zeus and Apollo often were depicted in anthropomorphic forms. The avatars of the Hindu god Vishnu possessed human forms and qualities.
Current religious holds that is not logical to describe the Christian God, who is believed to be omnipotent and omnipresent, as human. However, it is extremely difficult for the average person to picture or discuss God or the gods without an anthropomorphic framework.
In art and literature, anthropomorphism frequently depicts deities in human or animal forms possessing the qualities of sentiment, speech and reasoning. A.G.H.
The bible says we are made in Gods image but it is the belief of all except Mormons and i guess the Armstrong folks that it is our spiritual nature that was made in Gods image . Our ability to plan and build and to love and laugh . God made man to know Him and enjoy Him and to worship Him. Those are all spiritual Qualities
The Bible says that God created both males and females in His image.Unless God were a hermaphrodite (having both male and female sexual organs), this could not refer to physical characteristics. In addition, the New Testament tells us directly that God, in His glory, does not look like a man:
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:23)
The Bible indicates that God the Father does not have a body - that God is a Spirit.
.Christ... Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen... (Romans 1:19-20) Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Timothy 1:17)
...who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:15-16)
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. (Hebrews 11:27)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)
just as our spiritual bodies at resurrection will resemble our physical bodies. If we are made in God's spirit image, then we would be perfect. We are clearly not perfect.
No Doug our bodies of flesh will be raised incorruptible .
How did a creature that had no spiritual nature commune with God? How did a man without a spiritual nature understand the sin, so that they hid?
They hid because they were sinners, not because they understood the sin.
No they knew what sin was or they would not have hid from God. They got that knowledge from the tree . Before they ate they were pure innocence. But when they were disobedient they lost that innocence and the knew sin .
Why does my dog sulk off, hide and look guilty after it pees on the carpet? Does it have a spiritual nature too?
Does your dog walk and talk to God? Does your Dog have a covenant with God? We are not talking about animal instincts here. Adam was in charge of the animals
We don't have spiritual life. We are flesh and blood. We would die and die forever This is just part of the Gnostic teachings of Armstrong . The body is evil, and the body can not be pleasing to God . That is why you guys deny the physical resurrection There is a denial that the flesh is not wicked in itself if it weren't for God's mercy, mercy that extends to all of us if we want it.
Armstrong didn't teach this as far as I know. I don't believe flesh is evil. Flesh is what we are. We have to be flesh first in able to grow in spiritual rightenouss. Flesh is the incubator for our spirit
Do you know this sounds something like Mormonism ? .
There is nothing wicked about it. It's just that it's not made out of eternal substance.
Then why can not you believe that God can create a new physical body for you at the resurrection , a body and a spirit that is perfect as Adams was? I think it is because somewhere in the doctrine Armstrong taught there was a belief that the flesh is evil and sinful and corrupted . That somehow this wonderful creation of Gods was not "good" .That was a heresy of the early church
. I do have a spiritual life through Christ. I'll take you on your word that you do too.
Doug you are exactly correct that the unsaved unregenerate man has no spiritual relationship with God.But what you are not seeing is why that is.
You seem to think that God made half a man at creation , he lived and breathed but he could not desire or seek after God. This man could have no fellowship with God . He could not worship God as worship flows from our relationship.You are saying god created an empty shell and then punished it for not seeing the spiritual ramifications of the act..
We would say that man lacks a spiritual desire for God today because Adam failed and from then on the children were no longer born in the image of God, but in the image of their father that was spiritually dead
I have been up a long time responding to you . I have an article on this I am going to post I think you might like it
Where am I wrong?
Well for starters, here: very clear teaching of Scripture.
Scripture contains unambiguous claims that we must participate in our own salvation, and that it can be lost.
James 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
So we must keep at work on ourselves. Works (in the fields of the Lord) may not save us of themselves, but they can make us better people. They can be an aid to us as we journey through life, and they can keep us open to Gods Grace, without which our faith might fail rendering us lost.
Are works fruit? Yes. Works are a nutrient to our lives in faith.
v.
OTOH if my "idea" is that it is a stone it remains nothing but an "idea" with no method of proof. Except, of course, in my mind.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.