WHY I BECAME A PRETERIST

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 10, 2024 | Charles Meek

[Kalamata]

>>1. Paul did not say some of His audience would be alive.<<

Grammatically, that is exactly what he said.

>>2. The Spirit nor Paul lied. You misinterpreted the passage Mr K.<<

I would almost certainly misinterpret if I ignored the grammar and those to whom he addressed the letters.

>>When we’re all believer alive caught up into the clouds?<<

If you believe Paul was writing that letter to you, rather than the Thessalonians, then we disagree.

>>Where is that major event recorded in history?<<

Where is the parting of the Red Sea recorded in history? The resurrection of Christ?

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> seems to be the eyes of “the tribes of the land of Israel

Where does history record that every eye of the tribes of Israel witnessed Christ coming on the clouds?

Where does history record every Jew being caught up worldwide into the clouds?

[ealgeone]

Where is the parting of the Red Sea recorded in history? The resurrection of Christ?

Parting of the Red Sea is documented in Exodus.

I seriously cannot believe you asked where the resurrection of Christ is documented.

If you are doubting the resurrection then we have much bigger issues to discuss than the meaning of γῆς.

[ealgeone]

The most consequential to eschatology, in my opinion, is Revelation 1:7. In context it says that some who pierced him would still be alive. Jesus said that when he returned, his disciples (or at least some of them) would witness his return. Therefore, a more contextually sound understanding of “every eye” seems to be the eyes of “the tribes of the land of Israel” when all scripture and historical records are considered.

The tense and mood of the verbs in v7 point to a certain future event which had not happened at the time John was given this. 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

4John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 is much broader than just Israel. It is a worldwide application:

Every eye will see Him.

all the tribes of the earth.

[Kalamata]

>>Where does history record that every eye of the tribes of Israel witnessed Christ coming on the clouds?<<

It depends on how you define “every.” An example of Jesus using the word “every” [πάσῃ] in a limited sense is found in this commandment:

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” — Mar 16:15 KJV

Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every [πάσῃ] creature under heaven before he wrote the letter to the Colossians:

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” — Col 1:23 KJV

If I was a strict literalist who interpreted each word as if it had no limitations, I would have to call Paul a liar. But I know the Holy Spirit doesn’t lie, so I am obliged to believe the commandment to preach the gospel to every creature was fulfilled.

>>Where does history record every Jew being caught up worldwide into the clouds?<<

History has not recorded that, nor will it ever. Only a remnant of Israel was saved:

“Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.” — Rom 9:27-28 KJV

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

It depends on how you define “every.” An example of Jesus using the word “every” [πάσῃ] in a limited sense is found in this commandment:

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” — Mar 16:15 KJV

*****

I'm don't know what your background in New Testament Greek is but it's very lacking.

There is no limited application in the above command to preach the gospel to every creature.

*****

Greek translations of the passage in question and the definition of πάσῃ.

3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

[When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

Berean Greek New Testament 2016 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς “Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

SBL Greek New Testament 2010 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Westcott and Hort 1881 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants] καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants} καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005 Καὶ εἴπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Tischendorf 8th Edition 1872 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει

Beza Greek New Testament 1598 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

*****

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him.

Hasn’t happened in history.

Scripture says gods elect will be caught up with Christ in the clouds.

Hasn’t happened in history.

It seems you spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out ways to rationalize away scripture to make it support the view you (said) you predecided.

Pretty sure that’s classic eisegesis …

[Kalamata]

>>Parting of the Red Sea is documented in Exodus. I seriously cannot believe you asked where the resurrection of Christ is documented.<<

Your response is a non sequitur.

>>If you are doubting the resurrection then we have much bigger issues to discuss than the meaning of γῆς.<<

I believe every word of God. I believe God created heaven and earth in six days. I believe God created man from the dust of the ground on the sixth day. I believe God destroyed Sodom by raining fire and brimstone on it. I believe God parted the Red Sea. I believe the gospels that say Jesus rose from the dead. I believe Jesus when he said he would return to gather his elect during his own generation. I believe every eye saw him return. I believe Satan and his works will be destroyed. I believe the nations will be healed.

Do you doubt any of that? If not, what do you believe?

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

The scripture says it happened.

>>Scripture says gods elect will be caught up with Christ in the clouds. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

The scripture says it happened.

>>It seems you spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out ways to rationalize away scripture to make it support the view you (said) you predecided. Pretty sure that’s classic eisegesis …<<

It seems you were taught what to believe.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

My reply was a perfect response to such an outlandish question such as yours.

Brief recall...it was you who asked where the resurrection was documented. Hence why I asked the question I did.

You need to be more precise in your answers vs trying to be cute or snarky.

[ealgeone]

ampu: >>Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

kal: The scripture says it happened.

Please show us.

[Kalamata]

>>My reply was a perfect response to such an outlandish question such as yours. rief recall...it was you who asked where the resurrection was documented. Hence why I asked the question I did.<<

If you had been paying attention to the conversation you would know why I asked that question.

>>You need to be more precise in your answers vs trying to be cute or snarky.<<

Says the king of snark . . .

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.

If you can't handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.

[Kalamata]

>>>>ampu: Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<<<
>>>kal: The scripture says it happened.<<<

>>Please show us.<<

Okay.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” — Rev 1:1-3 KJV

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” — Rev 1:7 KJV

If you believe “must shortly come to pass” and “the time is at hand” (i.e., “the time is nigh”) means 2000 years, then nothing I say will convince you.

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.<<

Baloney.

>>If you can’t handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.<<

It appears from your attitude that you are having difficulty handling the conversation.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Well, I can see you don't know how to handle the Word.

The passages you posted do not say what you so desperately want them to say to fit whatever theology you adhere to.

But I can assure you of this: your understanding of these passages is incorrect.

If you want to persist in believing all of this happened in 70 AD...and not one person noticed this in all of early church history post 70 AD....then I cannot help you.

[ealgeone]

>>Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.<<

Baloney.

Comical reply. However, you question was an outlandish one...and remains so. Now that you've been called on it you're trying to excuse the stupidity of the question.

>>If you can’t handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.<<

It appears from your attitude that you are having difficulty handling the conversation.

Comical again.

Trust me...I've had debates with people far more knowledgeable than you.

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

No, I was taught the languages, translation, etc.

My beliefs come from the disciplines - not starting from a conclusion and fitting the interpretation to it.

[Kalamata]

>>Well, I can see you don’t know how to handle the Word.<<

You don’t seem to know very much at all.

>>The passages you posted do not say what you so desperately want them to say to fit whatever theology you adhere to.<<

What do the passages I posted say? (This should be interesting...)

>>But I can assure you of this: your understanding of these passages is incorrect.<<

I can assure you that you don’t know what you are talking about.

>>If you want to persist in believing all of this happened in 70 AD...and not one person noticed this in all of early church history post 70 AD....then I cannot help you.<<

I am certain you cannot “help” me.

Regarding Church history, when the inspired people (the elect) were raptured about 66 AD, inspired writings abruptly ceased. Afterward came the dark or silent period in which Gnostics, Judaizers, and other heretics dominated. Then came those known as the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) from which 1900 years of false end-time and apocalyptic prophecies arose which harmed countless lives and livelihoods. If that is your idea of Christianity then count me out.

You are welcome to try to dispute that bit of history, but include references. I don’t trust your opinions.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Regarding Church history, when the inspired people (the elect) were raptured about 66 AD, inspired writings abruptly ceased.

Ok...we're not dealing in reality any longer in this conversation.

You display a complete lack of knowledge of the Bible, Greek and overall history.

You can have the last word.

I'm out.