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How the Reformers Were More Catholic Than the Catholics
Patheos.Com ^ | 9/27/2019 | BY GENE VEITH

Posted on 10/15/2019 5:54:06 AM PDT by Gamecock

Onsi Kamel grew up as an evangelical but became highly attracted to Roman Catholicism. In time, though, he discovered that what had attracted him so much about Catholicism could not necessarily be found in the Roman Catholic Church. And that it could be found in the theology of the Protestant Reformation.

He tells his story in an article Catholicism Made Me Protestant, published, somewhat surprisingly, in First Things. He tells about his love for the Church Fathers and then his discovery that the Church of Rome does not necessarily hold to what they said. He greatly appreciated the writings of Cardinal Newman, the Anglican pioneer of Anglo-Catholicism who then took the step of going over to Rome, which made a saint of him. But Kamel became concerned with Newman’s notion of the “development of doctrine,” which teaches that doctrine really can change. But that didn’t fit with the universal revelation that he was looking for in Catholicism. Nor did today’s conflict between liberal and conservative Catholics correspond with his ideal of a single, unified Magisterium. From the article (my bolds):

While I was discovering that Roman Catholicism could not be straightforwardly identified with the catholicism of the first six centuries (nor, in certain respects, with that of the seventh century through the twelfth), and as I was wrestling with Newman, I finally began reading the Reformers. What I found shocked me. Catholicism had, by this time, reoriented my theological concerns around the concerns of the Church catholic. My assumptions, and the issues that animated me, were those of the Church of history. My evangelical upbringing had led me to believe that Protestantism entailed the rejection of these concerns. But this notion exploded upon contact with the Protestantism of history.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, Richard Hooker, Herman Bavinck, Karl Barth—they wrestled with the concerns of the Church catholic and provided answers to the questions Catholicism had taught me to pose. Richard Hooker interpreted the Church’s traditions; Calvin followed Luther’s Augustinianism, proclaimed the visible Church the mother of the faithful, and claimed for the Reformation the Church’s exegetical tradition; Barth convinced me that God’s Word could speak, certainly and surely, from beyond all created realities, to me.

Catholicism had taught me to think like a Protestant, because, as it turned out, the Reformers had thought like catholics. Like their pope-aligned opponents, they had asked questions about justification, the authority of tradition, the mode of Christ’s self-gift in the Eucharist, the nature of apostolic succession, and the Church’s wielding of the keys. Like their opponents, Protestants had appealed to Scripture and tradition. In time, I came to find their answers not only plausible, but more faithful to Scripture than the Catholic answers, and at least as well-represented in the traditions of the Church.

The Protestants did more than out-catholic the Catholics. They also spoke to the deepest needs of sinful souls. I will never forget the moment when, like Luther five hundred years earlier, I discovered justification by faith alone through union with Christ. I was sitting in my dorm room by myself. I had been assigned Luther’s Explanations of the Ninety-Five ­Theses, and I expected to find it facile. A year or two prior, I had decided that Trent was right about justification: It was entirely a gift of grace consisting of the gradual perfecting of the soul by faith and works—God instigating and me cooperating. For years, I had attempted to live out this model of justification. I had gone to Mass regularly, prayed the rosary with friends, fasted frequently, read the Scriptures daily, prayed earnestly, and sought advice from spiritual directors. I had begun this arduous cooperation with God’s grace full of hope; by the time I sat in that dorm room alone, I was distraught and demoralized. I had learned just how wretched a sinner I was: No good work was unsullied by pride, no repentance unaccompanied by expectations of future sin, no love free from selfishness.

In this state, I picked up my copy of that arch-heretic Luther and read his explanation of Thesis 37: “Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.” With these words, Luther transformed my understanding of justification: Every Christian possesses Christ, and to possess Christ is to possess all of Christ’s righteousness, life, and merits. Christ had joined me to himself.

I had “put on Christ” in baptism and, by faith through the work of the Spirit, all things were mine, and I was Christ’s, and Christ was God’s (Gal. 3:27; 1 Cor. 3:21–23). His was not an uncertain mercy; his was not a grace of parts, which one hoped would become a whole; his was not a salvation to be attained, as though it were not already also a present possession. At that moment, the joy of my salvation poured into my soul. I wept and showed forth God’s praise. I had finally discovered the true ground and power of Protestantism: “My beloved is mine, and I am his” (Song 2:16).

Rome had brought me to ­Reformation.

Kamel takes the various Reformers together–I believe he ended up as a confessional Calvinist–but what he says applies particularly well to Lutheranism, which preserves many elements associated with Catholicism but which are actually quite evangelical: the liturgy, the church year, the sign of the cross, crucifixes and other ecclesiastical art.

Perhaps the biggest appeal of Catholicism is its sacramentalism, but it seems to me that Lutheranism is more sacramental than the Church of Rome. Catholicism teaches that Baptism delivers us from Original Sin, after which we must find forgiveness of our post-Baptismal sins through the church’s penitential system. But Lutheranism teaches that Baptism covers all our days.

Catholic priests hear confessions, but their absolutions are highly conditional–contingent upon whether the sinner felt the right amount of contrition and performed sufficient acts of penance with the proper intention–and even confessed and absolved sins are still subject to the “temporal punishment” of Purgatory. But Lutheran pastors absolve sinners by returning them to their Baptisms, so that, in the words of the Catechism, “we receive absolution, that is, forgiveness, from the pastor as from God Himself, not doubting, but firmly believing that by it our sins are forgiven before God in heaven.”

Catholics believe that Christ is present in Holy Communion, but their doctrine of transubstantiation teaches that after consecration the physical elements of bread and wine are only illusions, mere external appearances that mask a complete change of substance. It turns out that the physical realm does not convey God after all, contrary to a common theme in Luther. Transubstantiation is thus docetic and even gnostic, in contrast to the Lutheran teaching of the Sacramental Union (not consubstantiation; not impanation), which accounts for the Biblical teaching that the bread and wine are Christ true body and blood in a much better way.

But for Lutherans, the point of Holy Communion is not just the mode of Christ’s presence–the preoccupation of both Catholics and the Reformed–but the effects of receiving His body and His blood. Catholics are to receive the Sacrament only after they have put themselves in a state of holiness–after confession and penance, in a state of moral purity, while fasting, after being reconciled with one’s neighbor, and other pious preparations–but for Lutherans, receiving Holy Communion is a way of receiving that holiness, as, in the words of the Catechism, “in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us.”

The Sacraments for Lutherans are not human “works”–neither the meritorious good works that enable us to “merit” salvation, as in Catholicism, nor human actions that other Protestants accuse Lutherans of putting their faith in rather than Christ–rather, they are works of Christ Himself upon us. They are tangible and personal manifestations of the Gospel–Christ’s life, death, and resurrection “for you”–to be received by faith.

I can relate to what Kamel says, as someone who also looked into Catholicism in my efforts to break out of not evangelicalism but the mainline liberal Protestantism I grew up with. I found Lutheranism, which, to me, embodied the best parts of both the Catholic and the Protestant traditions.

Here is another article along these same lines by British scholar Matthew Knell who also found that the Reformation is not what he had assumed it to be. “Much of the unexpected content,” he writes, “reinforces an impression that these men are seeking to be reformers of the church, not opponents of the church.” He has written a book on the topic this entitled Rediscovering the Reformation.



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To: MHGinTN

Please see 217,

I at least hold that the Holy Spirit is God, and that if Elizabeth is credited with speaking under his influence, that’s good enough for me.

I do understand that there are some people down your way who deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit—though that may be found entirely west of where you hail from. My friend had a Pappy from Arkansas.


221 posted on 10/16/2019 7:58:57 PM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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Comment #222 Removed by Moderator

To: MHGinTN

Maybe everyone in Tennessee does hold for the Divinity of the Holy Spirit. The folks I heard about were from Arkansas, but last I checked the two states were kind of close. In fact, the part of my family that ended up in Missouri for the bulk of the 19th century included folks with roots in Tennessee. I’ve got nothing against Tennessee. You’ve got some good Dominicans there.

At any rate-—post 217 invokes His Authority—do you recognize it or not? Or do you think that Luke is just making stuff up?

I trust you do buy into the Divinity of the Holy Spirit.


223 posted on 10/16/2019 8:07:40 PM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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To: Hieronymus

See post 220.


224 posted on 10/16/2019 8:19:55 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: Hieronymus

You tried, “How one goes from that to holding that I deny that Christ is God incarnate is beyond me.” LOL something I did not write, rabbit. But I can see how you need to hold that perspective. Take a nother trail, rabbit.


225 posted on 10/16/2019 8:44:34 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: MHGinTN; Al Hitan

One is Mother of a Person, not a Nature. This is backed up by what Elizabeth (mother of John, not daughter of Harry the VIII) is referenced as saying back in 221.

Please see the Counsel of Ephesus. From glancing over his posts, I gather that Al Hitan has attempted to explain Nestorianism to you.


226 posted on 10/17/2019 12:15:17 AM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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To: MHGinTN; ealgeone

Your post 204 claims that I deny that “Jesus is God with us”

that seems to me synonymous with holding that I deny that “Christ is God incarnate.”

Jesus is the Christ. If Christ is God incarnate then he is Emmanuel, which means God with us.

FWIW—I didn’t call the moderator in on 222, but I guess that there is some level of decorum that the RMs try to maintain when the boys are fighting.

Do you hold for the Divinity of the Holy Spirit? If so, what Scriptural Passages do you use? (I hold for the Divinity, but am wondering about your application of your Scriptural principles-—the word Trinity does not appear in Scripture).


227 posted on 10/17/2019 12:23:41 AM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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To: Hieronymus
'Something' awakened .me. I am not versed in Nestorianism, so you and Al can have that to yourselves. The Holy Spirit is of God and is God. The oneness of God in the trinity is not the issue. The Holy Spirit indwekks All to whom God has imputed the righteousness of Christ to. The Holy Spirit seal is upon ALL who are in Christ.

There is a mystery in how The Word who was with God in the beginning became flesh and dwelt among us, but that is what has happened. Jesus is Messiah. Messiah is. The Son of Man. The Son of Man is son of David.

I am going to my desktop to continue

228 posted on 10/17/2019 1:04:53 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: MHGinTN; Al Hitan

You may not be versed in Nestorianism, but your post 220 articulates the Nesotrian position. Accurately identifying it is not passing judgment, but that it is identifiable serves to not have to rehash things that were effectively settled in 431 and 451.

I give you a link to the Tome of Leo

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/tome-of-leo-st-leo-the-great/


229 posted on 10/17/2019 1:17:48 AM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” [Matthew 3:16&17 ESV]

Acts 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’

Can you tell me how the Scripture says the Word was with God in the beginning, before there was even space and time, and then the scriptures say what we see in Acts 13:13? 'Today' is a specific point IN TIME. How be it that The Word Who was made flesh and dwelt among us was on a 'today' begotten of The Father Almighty?

Therein is the mystery. Can you show a proof of how Mary conceived in her womb? From whence came the embryonic being who implanted in Mary's womb? Can you show proof of when The Spirit joins to the developing body? All men since Adam have had a spirit, a soul, and a body.

The scripture tells us that The Holy Spirit 'overshadowed' Mary AND SHE conceived in her womb. If you know enough to know that conception of spermatozoon and ovum occurs in the fallopian tube, normally, then you can know enough to see that the embryo that was Jesus was not conceived in Mary's fallopian tube. You nor I can show WHERE the zygotic human life was conceived, but we can point to Scripture and say that MARY conceived in her womb.

230 posted on 10/17/2019 1:35:30 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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There is no way that you or I can show what were the sources of the genes for the developing embryo of Jesus. In 431 the knowledge that the mother could be a surrogate to an already conceived embryo was not known. It is provable that the genes for the embryo can be brought together in vitro then implanted in a surrogate womb. Because the conceived life is sustained during gestation without drawing genes from the surrogate, it is entirely possible that GOD conceived the embryonic Jesus not in Mary’s body, then introduced His embryo to Mary’s uterine lining where the new life implanted itself into the lining as all embryos do that are conceived by a woman.


231 posted on 10/17/2019 1:48:28 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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In 431/451 it would have been natural to presume God used an ovum from Mary to conceived the embryo of Jesus. But we know in our age that it is not necessarily how GOD created the embryonic life that was Jesus Mary conceived in her womb.

Need I say it, that God could have removed a conceptus from Bathsheba's fallopian tube and reached forward in time to implant that being in Mary's womb? We simply do not know the precise way GOD created the embryonic Jesus, but we do know that MARY CONCEIVED in her womb.

232 posted on 10/17/2019 1:53:23 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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If you are prepared to claim that God used a spermatozoon from Himself and an ovum from Mary to conceived the zygotic Jesus, I cannot prove otherwise. But you have zero way to prove that is how the embryonic aged Jesus came to be.

In your own words a woman does not birth a nature but she does birth a person. By your own words Mary did not birth a third of the God, she birthed a human person ... who also happened to have the Spirit of God, so she is a god bearer, not a Mother of God's nature. Mary is not the Mother of God, she IS the Blessed Mother of Jesus, as the Scripture tells us.

233 posted on 10/17/2019 2:01:17 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: ealgeone; imardmd1; metmom; boatbums; aMorePerfectUnion

I am pinging you folks because you might have insights to this topic. I am only superficially familiar with the arguments around ‘nestorianism’. I am however well versed in embryology.


234 posted on 10/17/2019 2:07:32 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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Now this old man is going back to bed, where a little kitty named Abbey is wondering why I got up from her nest at this hour.


235 posted on 10/17/2019 2:17:06 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: MHGinTN; NRx

she birthed a human person


Nope, a Divine Person.

Three persons in the Trinity, and of those three, the Word Became Flesh and Dwelt among us.

The Son took unto himself a human nature, so He now has two natures, one Divine and Eternal, one created and existing in time, but the two natures are natures of the same person.

NRx—is there anyone in the Orthodox Caucus who knows Christology well? If so, would you mind pinging to this thread. On the whole, at this point in time I trust your guys more on the first seven councils than I do my own. From post 200 on it looks like we are heading to a rehash of Chalcedon and Ephesus. Thanks


236 posted on 10/17/2019 2:26:05 AM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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To: Hieronymus

Was Ephesus about Mary or Christ?


237 posted on 10/17/2019 5:08:56 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: metmom

The latter would be more appropriate.


238 posted on 10/17/2019 5:19:50 AM PDT by kosciusko51
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To: Hieronymus; MHGinTN

Mhgintn never doubts that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human, so you are incorrect...


239 posted on 10/17/2019 6:01:22 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; NRx; MHGinTN

Nope. Human Person. I Pass fifth century Christology, he Fails.

Christology may be 20 years in the rear view mirror, but two natures, one person is easy enough to remember. I can still explain it if push comes to shove, but I trust that one of our Orthodox Brethren can do a better job more quickly.

The doctrine is screamed out in loads of icons for those who know how to read an icon at even a basic level.


240 posted on 10/17/2019 6:11:10 AM PDT by Hieronymus ("I shall drink--to the Pope, if you please,-still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.")
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