Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: unlearner
Also, it is unfortunate that the majority of religious Jews elevate commentaries above the actual scriptures,

You mean actual Scriptures should be read without vowels or punctuation? Because that's what the actual Scriptures are. Vowels and punctuation come from the Oral Torah.

because the actual scriptures say that is an unborn baby is harmed in an act of violence, justice is eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and life for life.

First of all, don't you believe all that "old testament law" has been "done away with?" And secondly, the Oral Torah (which gives us the vowels and punctuation) tells us that this means the one who suffers loss is compensated monetarily. Jews have never hacked pieces off each other.

Sorry; no Thomas Nelson bibles were available until quite recently.

23 posted on 08/05/2019 6:09:51 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Modernism began two thousand years ago.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies ]


To: Zionist Conspirator

“You mean actual Scriptures should be read without vowels or punctuation? Because that’s what the actual Scriptures are. Vowels and punctuation come from the Oral Torah.”

True, and I am aware that authoritative revelations have been passed down orally. However, general revelation contained in the Hebrew scriptures carry greater authority. When the plain meaning of a passage is clear, it does violence to the scriptures to treat the mere insights of a Rabbi as having more authority than the very words of God Himself.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (NKJV)
For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?” But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Or...

Devarim 30:11-14 (OJB)
For this mitzvah which I command thee today, it is not too hidden from thee, neither is it too distant. It is not in Shomayim, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to Shomayim, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it Neither is it beyond the yam, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the yam for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the Davar is very near unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy lev, that thou mayest do it.

Or, how about this one?

Yehoshua 1:8 (OJB)
This Sefer HaTorah shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate on it yomam valailah so that thou mayest be shomer to do according to all that is written therein; for then thou shalt make thy derech prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

God commanded to meditate on the scriptures, not the oral traditions. It’s not a matter of HOW the scriptures were transmitted. Not everyone had to be literate. Many only ever HEARD the scriptures read, but the issue is the content. The commentaries may be useful. Certainly there have been prophets whose words were not written (nor were intended by God to be written and passed down in some cases), but God gave us a very specific collection of writings over time that revealed His will to the Jews first, and later to the Gentiles.

“First of all, don’t you believe all that ‘old testament law’ has been ‘done away with?’”

As a Christian, the Hebrew scriptures are essential to the Gospel (basic message of salvation from sin and means by which eternal life is imparted). The message of the sacrificial death of Jesus to atone for sin, the burial, and resurrection are an incomplete message without two very important elements. One is that this was not a made up story but was collaborated by many eye witnesses. Most of these died a martyr’s death even though before the resurrection many were too fearful to face public opposition. Second, if the Gospel was not part of God’s plan from the beginning, then it is not true. The Hebrew scriptures become more fully understood in the context of what God did through Jesus’s death and resurrection. For example, when Abraham prophetically told Isaac that God would provide Himself a lamb.

Bereshis 22:8, 13 (OJB)
And Avraham said, My son, G-d will provide Himself a seh (lamb) for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together... And Avraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and hinei behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Avraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering TAKHAT (instead of ) his son.

God provided a ram, not a lamb at this time. However, God sent John the Baptist to prepare Israel for the time of Jesus’s arrival and called Him the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”

Your confusion is understandable about what Christians believe about the Law because most people who identify as Christian have no idea what they believe. And the subject of how the Law of Moses applies is one of the ones that many Christians are very mixed up about. Rather than get into all of the various views of modern Christians, I’d focus on what was written by those who were directly taught by Jesus (including those who dictated rather than wrote).

First, Jesus made it clear that He did not come to destroy the Law or other scriptures, but to fulfill them prophetically. He made a distinction between the scriptures and oral traditions in that He permitted His disciples to break oral traditions in some cases. So, for example, they might have eaten without washing their hands. There are certainly references to various washings and even specific commandments in the scriptures, but the traditions Jesus allowed His disciples to avoid were not mandatory according to His doctrine. Often Jesus, acting in the capacity of a prophet, did things that were not customary as part of an object lesson for instruction. This includes things like healing on the Sabbath. Incidentally, Jesus supported the oral tradition you referred to by stating that “every jot a tittle” of the Law would be fulfilled. Of course these marks were added later (than the original writings) based on the oral traditions passed down in Judaism.

This does not mean that washing hands is a bad thing. Jews probably avoided the black plague in Europe by practicing this tradition. And even though some of the disciples did not keep many of the oral traditions, some, like Paul, did.

For example, the Corinthian Christians asked him about the custom of men not touching women, which is practiced by Orthodox Jews today. Paul said this was a “good” custom. Paul continued to live according to the strictest personal conduct as a Pharisee. Nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is there a specific commandment by God for a man not to touch an unrelated woman, but there is certainly wisdom that Jewish Orthodox tradition has preserved whereby following this principle a man is better able to keep God’s commandments such as not to commit adultery.

This issue that many Christians get confused about was also a big controversy in early Christianity. Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. Even the disciples of Jesus were shocked when it was revealed that God intended the Gospel message to be spread to the Gentiles and that Gentiles did not need to become Jews in order to receive it. Gentiles are morally bound by the righteous demands of the law (moral code) such as the ten commandments, which are reiterated in the New Testament (with Sabbath-keeping primarily symbolic of resting from our works in order that God’s work of righteousness might be completed).

Paul specifically wrote in Romans that the Law brings about an awareness of sin and causes the “whole world” to become guilty before God.

The apostles were repeatedly accused (falsely) of encouraging Jews to forsake the Law of Moses. The record in Acts and in Paul’s writings make it very clear that Jewish followers of Jesus continued to strictly keep the law. Further, as the Law clearly says, Gentiles are required to obey even certain civil elements of the Law when visiting the land of Israel. For example, all Christians, Jew and Gentile, when in Jerusalem should observe the Sabbath, even though the directive of the Sabbath was written specifically for the Jews. The words of Jesus support this view in His Olivet discourse when He prophesied of the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred in 70 AD. He told His disciples to pray that when they had to flee it would not be on the Sabbath. Jewish Christians in 70 AD avoided death because they heeded this prophetic warning.

The “New Testament” affirms and relies on the authority of the Hebrew scriptures. Some things in the Law were never intended for Gentiles, while some clearly were. For example, circumcision was given to Abraham and his natural offspring (which may include some ethnic groups that are considered Gentile). God did not drive out the inhabitants of Canaan for their lack of circumcision, but for the abominations which are specified in the Law. These include homosexual sex and incest. So, Paul fought the Christian sect that wanted to force Gentiles to get circumcised and convert to Judaism in order to be saved from their sins. However, he personally circumcised Timothy, a young man he trained to carry on his ministry, because Timothy’s father was Jewish.

“Jews have never hacked pieces off each other.”

Circumcision, notwithstanding ;-) perhaps so. But they have, like most cultures, enacted a death penalty when it was warranted. Today, in some states, if a pregnant woman and her baby are murdered, it is a double-homicide.

I understand the argument of when a baby “becomes a living soul” like Adam, who did so when God breathed into him. But when does an unborn baby receive oxygen? At least by implantation, right? Further, an unborn baby contains its own unique genetic code. It is fully alive. Jews do not eat anything with blood in it because “the life of the flesh is in the blood”. And when does an unborn baby get its own blood, with its own unique blood type and DNA signature? At conception.


26 posted on 08/06/2019 12:29:04 AM PDT by unlearner (War is coming.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson