Posted on 07/19/2018 7:39:46 AM PDT by Salvation
So true.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26).
And: Mathew 7:20 NIV
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Fruits: Biblical definition is Acts or Works!
No need to reconcile.
Perhaps I should have posted a bit more.
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5-6 NASB
Galatians, Chapter 5:N.B. Paul is writing to those who have professed faith in Jesus Christ.
13 For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. 16 I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. 26 Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
So we cannot have confidence that we are saved until the end of our life? For there have been many people who have proclaimed faith in Jesus Christ and have latter fallen into sin.
“So we cannot have confidence that we are saved until the end of our life?”
We can have total confidence in our salvation; I know where I will spend eternity. I still sin; everybody does. But the word, “continual”, is the issue.
I remain sick of the implications that we don’t take sin seriously.
I was writing about general Protestant beliefs, not specifically Lutheran. As to the question that I posed, I frankly do not know what answer you would give. One of my frustrations in these discussions with Protestants over the question of faith and works is that I get what seem to be equivocal and contradictory answers to the question. So please do not take offense if I ask it once again. I can only know how to address you (as opposed to other Protestant in the forum) once I have an answer. So again: Is someone who continues in homosexual acts without any remorse saved if he truly believes that Jesus covers all of his sins?
If I understand you correctly (please correct me if I a wrong), if someone continues in sin without remorse or desire of reform, then he was not saved in the first place. But if he only sins occasionally and then has sorrow for this and repents, seeking to live according to the will of God, then his salvation is not at risk. Please note that I am not trying to misrepresent your position but trying to understand it.
http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
The Roman Catholic requirement for a mortal sin:
Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner
Except these conditions are not noted in the NT. They've been added by Rome.
These contradict Ephesians 2:1-2 where Paul notes:
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
The word for trespasses is 3900 paráptōma (from 3895 /parapíptō, see there) – properly, fall away after being close-beside, i.e. a lapse (deviation) from the truth; an error, "slip up"; wrong doing that can be (relatively) unconscious, "non-deliberate."
It covers all of the things we do we are not even aware of.
But let's review just a couple of the "mortal sins".
Idolatry—Idolatry is the worship, veneration or belief in false gods. Because it is a direct rejection of God, it is a grave sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Idolatry includes worship of images (This does not mean that we cannot venerate religious images. Veneration of images such as a crucifix is veneration of the person depicted, and not the actual image in and of itself.)
Rome has to add this to get around all of the idols of Mary and the worship of Mary.
Divination, magic and sorcery—This is a grave sin which includes attempting to command the powers of the occult, control or speak to demons or spirits (especially Satan), attempting to divine the future, and the use of magic charms (CCC 2116). Deuteronomy 18:10-11 speaks against this grave sin.
Do you wear the Brown or Green Scapular...or perhaps the Miraculous Medal?
Several of your fellow Roman Catholics have admitted they do.
What's worse is that Rome itself allows this. What does this say about Roman Catholicism?
Gluttony—Gluttony is an excessive love for food, and is a disordered passion for wordly appetites. Because it is contrary to the virtue of temperance, it can constitute a grave sin. Gluttony is also a capital sin (CCC 1866, 2290)
How many overweight Roman Catholics are there? Ever pig out at Thanksgiving? Christmas? Do you confess that?
Divorce—The grave sin of divorce condemns those who divorce and remarry (Matthew 5:32) and those who divorce in the civil sense (except by grave dispensation). Hence divorce between two baptized Christians is a mortal sin (CCC 2384). How many divorced Roman Catholics are there? Forget the appeal to annulment as that isn't in the NT.
Adultery—Adultery is marital infidelity. A married person who has sexual relations with anyone but their lawful spouse, even transient sexual relations, commits adultery (CCC 2380).
Ever look at a woman with lust? If any dude says no they've committed yet another sin.
Murder (intentional homicide)—Direct and intentional killing is gravely sinful (CCC 2268). It is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance, much like the murder of Abel at the hands of Cain. Indirect homicide can also be of grave nature (such as refusing to help a person in danger). However, the Church teaches that self-defense is permissible for the preservation of a one’s life. If the attacker is mortally wounded or killed, then the death of the attacker is not a sin. Those who use unnecessary aggression in self-defense can sin mortally, if the attacker is killed or gravely injured.
Ever been so mad at someone you wanted them dead? Be honest...if you're not that's another mortal sin. Jesus equated the thought of murder as having done the act.
Pornography—Pornography is the display of intimate real or simulated sexual acts to a third party. Because it removes the marriage act from within the sacramental sanctity of marriage, and perverts sex, it is gravely contrary to charity (CCC 2354). The display of pornography to children and other parties is especially gravely sinful because it is gravely scandalous.
Most are probably equating this with XXX rated type movies. But I'd say if you've seen a movie...any movie...with this it's pornography. That's gonna be a whole bunch of movies.
Theft—All persons have a right to lawful private property obtained by legitimate work, inheritance or gift. To violate a person’s right to property by theft is a grave sin, especially if the loss of the property will severely hurt the victim (CCC 2408). The gravity of theft is determined by the harm it does to the victim. A poor beggar who steals a loaf of bread commits a less grave sin than a rich man who steals the savings of a destitute person. St. Paul tells us that thieves shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
Ever take a pen from work? Maybe a sheet of paper?
Cheating –A cheater defrauds his victim of their property. It is morally of grave matter unless the damage to the victim is unusually light (CCC 2413).
Ever goof off at work....or maybe slip in or out a little late or early? Ever exceed the speed limit by even 1 mph?
Lying—Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. It is gravely sinful when it significantly degrades the truth. The gravity of this sin is measured by the truth it perverts, the circumstances, intentions of the liar and harm done to the victims (CCC 2484). Lying is a sin that originates from the devil, Satan, who is "the father of all lies" (John 8:44).
Ever tell a "little white lie"? If your wife asks, "does this dress make me look fat?"....what say you? Be honest!
Incredulity, heresy, apostasy, schism,—Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is obstinate post-baptismal denial of a truth that must be believed with divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is total repudiation of the Christian faith. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with the members of the Church (CCC 2089). These sins strain or break the bonds of unity with the offender and the Catholic Church.
Wow CCC 2089...this one is going to get a lot of Roman Catholics who hate Francis.
I've seen several Roman Catholics dismiss Unam Sanctam because they don't like Francis.
Avarice—Avarice is greed and the desire to amass earthly goods without limit. It is a passion for riches and luxury. Those who seek temporal happiness at the expense of spiritual duties, risk the grave sin of avarice. Avarice is one of the deadly vices (CCC 2536).
Envy—Envy, another capital sin, is sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself. Envy can lead to grave consequences and can harm neighbors. If envy leads to grave harm to a neighbor, it is surely a grave sin.
I put those two together as they seem to go hand in hand?
Got a 401k? Ever check the balance and wish it were higher...or did you perhaps despair during the late market turndown? Have or want a newer car? Do you trade on a regular basis? Perhaps you want a bigger house....or a better kitchen? Ever see your neighbor's house and wish you perhaps had his/hers?
Do you tithe to God? Or do you withhold money because you don't like what's happening in your church? I've seen a number of Roman Catholics urge not contributing until things change in the RCC.
Hatred—Hatred of a neighbor is to deliberately wish him evil, and is thus a grave sin (CCC 2303 and Galatians 5:19-20).
This is going to nail a lot of Roman Catholics who hate us non-Roman Catholics.
This is just a partial listing.
If Roman Catholics are honest....most of these are committed everyday.
It's why Paul wrote....all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.....and that the wages of sin is death.
Apart from faith in Christ and His forgiveness all of us are condemned to death and Hell...for all of our sins.
That’s what I believe.
He's not talking about believers.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Born again believers are NEW creations in Christ, the old man has been crucified. We are RIGHTEOUS in Christ, we are not the unrighteous who will not inherit the kingdom of God.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
We are saints who sometimes sin, and often struggle with sin.
We are not still sinners hoping to hang on by the skin of our teeth until the end to maybe find out if we were good enough and made it or not.
THAT is salvation by works and salvation by works can NEVER give the believer the security that God says we have.
Now, the contradiction is yours to explain away.
I've posted the verses that show that we are secure in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance, until we acquire possession of it.
You are saying we're not.
Now it's your turn to explain away the discrepancy that you claim is found in Scripture and taught by Catholicism, because on one hand you are saying that we are saved by grace and not works, and on the other hand you say that if we don't do the works, we're not saved. .
Your comments completely misrepresent the very text of the CCC you posted.
A person can believe that Jesus covers all his sins but that is NOT a guarantee that he is saved.
He must be born again, exercise saving faith and not just intellectual assent.
However, you are asking us to stand in the place of God in judgment of someone's soul and that is beyond our ability.
I can look at someone like that and doubt the genuineness of their profession, but only God knows the heart and where that person's heart really is.
Lot was called *righteous Lot* in 2 Peter, hardly a term I'd use for a man with his lifestyle and sin, but God saw it differently.
And David, the man after God's own heart, committed intentional adultery and premeditated cold-blooded murder. By Catholic standards, he is not and could not be saved, because as we've been told by other FRoman Catholics, no murderer can go to heaven.
He committed blatant and intentional sin, something Catholics claim keeps you out of heaven.
So you tell me, is David in heaven or not?
One minor correction. It is not likely that he is saved.
But otherwise, yes, that is what we have been trying to tell you all along.
A born again believer is a NEW creation in Christ, we have been given a NEW spiritual nature that will produce the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.
It will happen as the natural outgrowth of our life in Christ. We become more Christlike when we get His nature implanted in our soul.
And yes, forsaking sin is PART of that, but someone can give up all kinds of sin and still not be saved. Jesus had some pretty harsh words for the Pharisees, who kept the letter of the Law but not the Spirit of the Law.
Catholicism is too obsessed with the sin part and not focused enough on the growth part.
They spend most of their time trying to avoid sin, as if that alone is what pleases God.
As we grow in Christlikeness, the sin will fall away and will diminish in its ability to influence us.
But the whole focus is not just on ticking of the list of sins that I avoided today, but growing in relationship with God.
And sometimes we sin, as everyone is prone to do and then 1 John 1:9 comes into play and we confess it and it's dealt with.
But at no point does the sin ever cost us our salvation in spite of the damage in the lines of communication with our heavenly Father.
All right, I’ll assume that this is a genuine inquiry and not an attempt to gotcha me. I’ve had to deal with gotcha questions before.
The first question is what you mean by unrepentant sin. There are sins that we commit that we repent of, but still have a hook in us, so to speak. There are sins that a man can commit every day, and hate doing, but still has to repent of them every day.
And other times we sin without even knowing that we do. Pride. Lust. The innermost thoughts of the heart that we don’t even think about.
This is why the Christian life is a life of continual repentance until either we die or Jesus returns.
An unrepentant sinner, on the other hand, would be saying, “I know it’s a sin and I don’t care; I’m going to do it anyway. I don’t care about what the Lord says.”
A person with that kind of attitude towards the will of God either doesn’t have faith at all, or will very soon lose what faith they have. I mean, that IS what James 2 is talking about, isn’t it?
And Lutherans, at least, acknowledge that. That’s why there are instructions about excommunication (and reconciliation, for those who repent of their previously unrepentant sin) and why pastors have lots of training in church discipline.
Which one(s)?
Um, all of them. Suffice it to say I find your comments on the clear language in the Catechism unpersuasive. And what makes you think Catholics don’t confess to things like those in your silly examples? I have, wanting the err on the side of caution, and prompted by a desire for a close examination of my thoughts and conduct.
Then you best be keeping the priest by your side 24/7/365. If you are honest, you commit at least those "mortal sins" everyday.
Most Roman Catholics don't like getting into the weeds of the sins and how your daily actions confirm you do indeed commit most, if not all, of these daily.
Your FR handle might be a mortal sin as well.
BTW, why the need to post to metmom?
It took a perfect ‘blood’ sacrifice to offer ‘everlasting life’ (salvation) .. It does require one ‘believeth in Him’ to have salvation offered. Christ said Keep my Commandants ... that demonstrates ‘belief’.
IF you think one can worship another god and have salvation offered then you are following a strange spirit.
Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The devil is the only named entity in the whole of the WORD that has already been judged to death... There are some of his angels that have been judged to death as well. The book of Jude is about them.
Why are my real life examples "silly"? Because they illustrate the daily sins the Roman Catholic is subject to?
If every Roman Catholic confesses every sin....other than, "Father, forgive me for I have sinned as kind of a blanket confession", then the priest is gonna be very, very, very busy.
Think about this the next time you're driving down the road. If you're breaking the speed limit...that's a mortal sin.
You'd have to confess that,do penance and attend Mass, or be in danger of losing your eternal salvation.
A real life example....you're speeding down the road, get involved in a car wreck and you are killed without benefit of confession. Per Roman Catholicism, you have lost Heaven and are now consigned to Hell with no chance of getting out.
Is that what you really believe?
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