Posted on 04/23/2018 9:24:19 PM PDT by Sontagged
Sorry, I didn’t think I needed the “/s”
Next we’ll be arguing about whether Matthew, Mark and Luke were part of the 12 Disciples.
Let’s put that quote you use to malign Bill Johnson back in the larger context from which it came. Then the “objective” reader can see whether or not they agree with your analysis that Johnson is elevating experience (in your words) to the place of the Holy Spirit:
“Many fear signs and wonders because of the possibility of deception. So, in order to prevent any opportunity of being deceived they replace displays of power with religious traditions, Christian activities, or even Bible study. They often become satisfied with knowledge. But, when this happens who is deceived?
Signs have a purpose. They are not an end in themselves. They point to a greater reality. When we exit a building, we don’t go out through the exit sign. When we need to put out a fire, we don’t beat it out with the sign pointing to the fire hose. The sign is real. But it points to a reality greater than itself.
A sign along a highway can confirm we are on the right road. Without signs we have no way of knowing we are where we think we are. Signs aren’t needed when I travel familiar roads. But I do need them when I’m going where I’ve never been. So it is in this present move of God. We’ve gone as far as we can with our present understanding of Scripture. It’s time to let signs have their place. They illustrate Scripture, all the while pointing to Jesus, the Son of God. Yet they also confirm to a people who have embraced an authentic gospel that they are going in the right direction.
Not one of us understood salvation until we were saved. It was the miracle—an experience—which gave us understanding. So it is with signs. They point us to the person. In this hour the experience will help to open up those portions of Scripture that have been closed to us.
No one in their right mind would claim to understand all that is contained in the Bible for us today. Yet to suggest that more is coming causes many to fear. Get over it, so you don’t miss it.” When Heaven Invades Earth, pp. 129&130
I would suggest that the Holy Spirit uses experience(s) to teach us, fill us, transform us and, yes, open the meaning of the Bible to us. Consider Luke’s history regarding the day of Pentecost, Paul’s instructions in Corinthians regarding manifestations of spiritual gifts, and Jude’s admonition to build faith by praying in the Holy Spirit (tongues). Would you classify these things given to us by the Holy Spirit as NON-experiences?
Thank you for your Freepmail. I do appreciate your thoughts, and so:
I went and re read the article posted, your own posts, and considered the whole thread.
A couple of items: I have only seen in all of your many and lengthy posts a reference to a Bible verse once: 1 Corinthians 15:3-5:
(For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve)
This did not appear to have anything to do with the post.
Your posts are large, contain many items to consider, and ask questions, all at once. This causes confusion.
The tone of your posts, whatever your opinion, are less than cordial.
God is not the author of confusion, and this is not seemly.
If you are a brother in Christ, then please make Biblical arguments or supports for your opinion. Not extraBiblical. Thank you.
1 Corinthians 14:33 - 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
LOL!
This is for sweaver; ccd to the rest.
I understand courtesy pings.
Not many people do it seems.
Anyways, thanks for your observations.
I wasn't trying to be offensive. One of the problems with text is that it can't accurately express the spoke word. There was no "/s" in my reply because it wasn't intended to be sarcastic. I though the wiki article on the canon of the Bible was interesting and I assumed (I shouldn't assume), that you'd like to see the same article. Again, my apologies.
Your larger context actually reinforces my point.
The Holy Spirit opens our understanding to Scripture.
Signs are probably the WORST means to use to determine the meaning of Scripture or if something is from God.
The enemy can counterfeit miracles and to depend on signs as opposed to God’s word, leaves a person wide open for deception. The enemy can have one of his false prophets make some kind of claim as being from God, perform some kind of miraculous sign,and then claim that the sign if proof the claim is from God because God (allegedly) verified it with a sign.
If indeed the sign actually happened.
The whole Word Faith, healing movement is rife with frauds and fake healing, to boot. So those *signs* do not prove anything or lead us deeper into understanding Scripture.
I also noticed how he poisoned the well so to speak, by implying that those who are opposed to the use of signs as he claims they are for *fear* them.
Opposing the misuse of signs and using discernment to determine if they are from God or not is NOT *fearing* them.
My experience is that people who believe in non-Biblical doctrine (i.e. new Revelations) usually follow that with “the fallibility of Scripture”. The LDS church uses the phrase “when interpreted correctly” which is ludicrous because we have the Hebrew and Greek versions.
When Scripture opposes their new Revelations, Scripture ends up taking the fall. Most cults use this method.
Exactly.
There’s a huge danger in evaluating Scripture in light of experience instead of evaluating experience in light of Scripture.
People are most likely to believe in the fallibility of Scripture when it disagrees with their personal beliefs and/or behavior.
My independent Baptists friends believe in the infallibility of Scripture EXCEPT for Jesus turning water into wine at the wedding at Cana.
I’ve never heard of this guy before but I found a blog entitled “How God rescued me from Bill Johnson’s cult”. Quite a read.
My son was outside his house which is next to a college campus. A Korean man stopped by to “witness” to him about God and God’s wife. My son was polite but informed him that he was a Baptist.
Weeks later, we are having dinner with the Mormons next door and the Elders. My son relates the story about the man and the crazy talk about God’s wife.
I had to ‘splain him after we left.
Thank you for your observations. In my comments I try and directly address specific comments in the post I am responding to, but will strive to be succinct.
The initial article, posted by Sontagged, makes this statement: “Their teachings also place Bethel outside of historic Protestant Christianity, based on the 16th century Protestant Reformation, which has taught that the church is to look to Scripture–not new revelations–for its beliefs and practices.”
I find that a sweeping indictment, don’t you?
The arguments used by Pivec seem largely to center on placing “new revelation” over scripture, or the Bible, or the written word — however you want to define it.
Regarding her assessment and allegations here are some scriptures to consider:
2 Cor. 3:4-6 (the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life)
John 5:39 (the Scriptures do not bring life apart from Jesus)
Pivec nowhere demonstrates that Johnson/Bethel abandons or replaces Scripture — hence her conclusions are a leap and condemnations unwarranted.
What the quotes do show is that Johnson believes there is more in the Bible to see than has been previously seen, and grasp than has been previously grasped. I know that this is true in my life, and do not doubt that it is also true for the church at large. I don’t see any rejection of historical protestant orthodoxy, just a desire for and pursuit of more of Jesus.
Matthew 21:21,22 (you can have all things you pray and believe for even removing mountains)
Mark 6:56 (as many as touched Jesus were made whole)
Acts 19:11,12 (Paul’s extraordinary miracles)
Mark 16:20 (confirmation of the disciples message through miraculous signs)
These are a few of the ways I see much of Protestant Christianity falling short of their calling to be like Jesus — which is the goal of the Christian life and church life (the body). Shouldn’t SOMEONE be calling us to be more like Jesus and more like the Bible prescribes?
As far as cordiality, I spoke directly to those who questioned a brother in the Lord’s salvation, and challenged them to justify their condemnation of him. I did not attack them personally, nor question their salvation, and I do not think it cordial, or biblical, to call people heretics (outside of orthodoxy) absent very good reasons after “due process.” I am still waiting for their sound BIBLICAL analysis.
Romans 14:4 (judging another man’s servant)
Luke 9:49,50 (forbidding the driving out of demons by those that don’t follow you)
Blessings!
Are you confusing me with someone else? Because I’ve never, EVER referenced 1 Cor 15.
I reference Bible verses all the time; the last one was about vain repetitions: (But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking)
Are you trying to criticize me for not identifying the actual NUMBER of a Bible verse?
What weird, idiotic and strangely PERSONAL criticisms of me, someone you’ve never met and someone you’ve failed to cyberstalk enough to realize I’m a girl.
Now man up, (”play the man” 2 Samuel 10:12) go away and whine on someone else’s thread.
God confirms His word with signs following. It is a BIBLICAL pattern:
Mark 16:20 - Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. NIV
John 6:2 - A huge crowd kept following him wherever he went, because they saw his miraculous signs as he healed the sick. NLT
Hebrews 2:3,4 - how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? This salvation had its beginning when it was spoken of by the Lord, and it was confirmed to us by those who heard him. At the same time, God also testified by signs and wonders, various miracles, and distributions of gifts from the Holy Spirit according to his will. CSB
Luke 11:18,19 You say I am empowered by Satan. But if Satan is divided and fighting against himself, how can his kingdom survive? And if I am empowered by Satan, what about your own exorcists? They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said. NLT
Yes and in practice it goes beyond ancient Gnosticism because of their institutionalized beliefs based upon these practices. This is one of the reasons I think you have to have been in one of these NAR Pentecostal circles to truly understand how bad it is.
I was just thinking about the NAR teaching on “being in the Presence” of God and how they try to be in some supernatural trance-state or “presence” of Christ all the time, rather than immersing themselves in the Word as a more important way of relating to Him.
David Guzik taught on this once: He pointed out that even after Christ’s resurrection, He didn’t think much of the disciples “basking in His presence”... by just standing there, absorbing His glory (whatever that is!)... nope... what did the Lord do when He was with the disciples after he was resurrected?
... He opened the word and began to teach them more of the Word!
This NAR stuff is doctrines of demons posing as gifts of the Holy Ghost.
New Apostolic Reformation is what NAR stands for.
It means, these people believe they are to be the End Time Apostles who usher in the Second Coming of Christ and that they are ON PAR WITH THE APOSTLES who were first hand witnesses to Christ’s earthly ministry and who wrote the New Testament.
That’s the key. These NAR fake Apostles want to be on par with the OT Prophets and NT Apostles so they can rewrite the Word via their new revelation.
Doctrines of demons/spirit of antiChrist.
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