Well, I think enough of what God's Word has shown and affirmed to me to know that in giving this pronouncement, you've taken yourself too seriously and have gone way overboard; but I'm not so stuck on myself as to become offended or intimidated. We'll let His Scriptures determine the value of your estimate.
The problem is for us is how to be Bereans about these Gifts.
Rightly said, and I agree. I've been of a Berean mindset for a long time--open-minded--not closed-minded like the ignoble Thessalonikans, whose attitude one should beware of. The Bereans kept their options open long enough to check their existing TaNaKh to determine whether Paul's doctrine was true to as much of God's progressive revelation that they had in hand. It wasn't to them that Paul had to send disciplinary letters.
Considering that, it seems a bit strange to me that you would post these verses from Acts 19:1-7 without providing some explanation of how it is to be used to support your thesis of survival of sign gifts into today's Christian ministries.
Have you thought of why this passage (which probably resulted from Apollos' incomplete Gospel teaching at Ephesus) is placed at this juncture of Luke's history of Paul's travels? Have you figured out at which point in this account any of a dozen of theological students was born anew? Did they all make the same commitment to The Christ at the same moment? Or have you figured out why your translation omits the word "Christ" where the AV does not? And what was the correlation between Apollos, their teacher, having gone to Corinth before Paul arrived at Ephesus on his third apostolic journey, from whence he wrote the first canonical epistle to the Corinthian church? Or how does this pouring out of the Spirit compare to Saul bar Kish's experience, or Samuel's anointing of David? And why did Peter's preaching of The Faith to Cornelius' household result in a water baptism subsequent to the effusion of Spirit signs, whereas at Ephesus the water baptism preceded that display? And moreover, why did none of the 120 initial disciples present at the coming of the Holy Ghost require water baptism, when apparently the Ephesian disciples did? Why was it that these particular disciples at Ephesus did not know that a manifestation of the Holy Ghost's activity in a regenerated first-century follower of The Way was presumed, when the gospel had been preached there at Ephesus many years ago, with a following circle of believers existing since then?
I am not sure what you want me to assume from your citation. What does your bolding of verse 6 mean, especially regarding the continuance of the sign gifts?
There are a lot of ways to comment on your pointless reply. You'll need to give it some substance so I can get some wood on it.
But as the others have said, it does take some time, so let's economize. To me, the completion of the progressively revealed infallible, inerrant, plenarily, verbally, Written and Preserved Words of God which ended as of 100 A. D. is the "That Which Is Perfect (= Finished, Finalized)" that has displaced "That Which Was Partial (= Incomplete)" of which the glossolalia, the special prophetical magnifying of God's Name and Qualities, and exposition of the twelve previously mysterious doctrines is over with. So far, no preacher or Bible translation from thence even though helpful, edifying, and encouraging, has ever been found faultless. Nor have any Edgar Cayce-type future-tellers ever been found to be right on the button, all the time, as would have been expected of God's appointed mouthpiece, if such existed.
Nowhere have I ever claimed that The Holy Spirit ever ceased in supplementing our weaknesses, prayers, or physical, mental, and spiritual health when a truly regenerated Christ-follower leans on Him. But there is no substitute to being filled with the Spirit through permitting the Word of Christ to dwell in ones mind and heart in all wisdom, and admonishing each other through psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in ones heart unto the Lord. It is that kind of filling and the doing of it, that pleases The Father way beyond the level to which the exercising the once-partially-useful sign gifts could ever obtain.
I've been through all that FGBMFI, Demos Shakarian, Cross & Switchblade, speaking-in-tongues, seeking-hidden-knowledge, prosperity gospel approach. Through long and deep experimentation with it, I've found that it does not and cannot satisfy. It will never take you to the place where Spirit-led immersion in, and insightful application of God's Word gets you.
Just sitting down and prayerfully opening my faithfully translated Bible lets me know that it is The God, My Heavenly Father, and His Son right by me, speaking directly to me from the words recorded there. There is nothing better, than when He lifts me to another plane and shows me something I had not seen before, that I cannot find on my own, something precious, some golden nugget of truth, a key to sweeter relationships with fellow humans, a comfort for a sad heart. That is available and accessible to every one of His children, inexhaustible. That is the gift that keeps on giving.
Remember, You must die. You must. Are you really prepared for it? It is given to every human, even Jesus, once to die, but after that, the Judgment. What do you want to take to heaven? A growing and ever-deeper, richer fellowship with Him in His Word that will continue right along forever? Or a list of failed searches for easily-attained fulfillment of your wishes?
I'm looking forward to deeper and deeper Bible Study in Heaven, forever.
“Without Love I am a noisy gong or clanging cymbal.”
Your post smelled more of swashbuckling than agape.
BRAVO!!! and Amen!!!
Uh. You’ve posed a big block of questions, some of which you should probably do the homework and answer for yourself, because they don’t really have anything to do with Cessationist unbelief.
And I’ll try not to take umbrage at your patronizing tone.
1. Because the canon of Scripture was sealed after the 1st Century does not make a case that the gifts given at Pentecost (or the gifts that particularly offend modern-day Cessationists) somehow were stopped at that time...
... unless you believe God had some fancy reason to show off lots of signs and wonders in the 1st century church, and then put the brakes on for the rest of church history.
Without explanation.
2. The sealing of Scripture was a logistical necessity; whereby the gifts given at Pentecost are weapons of spiritual warfare, necessary for the building, continuance and maintanence of the church; as John teaches: “the antiChrist is already in the world”.
3. Cessationists such as yourself miss an important, if ominous, event that correlates with the sealing of Scripture in the First Century.
The spirit of antiChrist also came about in the First Century,
and you need the full armory of the gifts of the Spirit in the church for this reason.
4. You and any other Cessationist are left with choosing which Gifts of the Spirit you suppose God stopped in the first century.
5. And then you are left with having to excise much of the NT which discusses the functionality of these gifts in the body.
6. And then you have to explain which of the gifts ceased, and why these particular gifts needed to be stopped by God.
7. And then explain why God would play “Indian giver” with these gifts, and most importantly for the modern Berean...
... where this “cessation” of the gifts of Pentecost is spelled out in the Old Testament.
Good luck with that.
7. The timing of the Holy Spirit baptisms of John the Baptist’s disciples is not the point. The point is Paul preached the baptism of the Holy Spirit to them and they responded by prophesying and speaking in tongues, with joy.
And then Paul taught that “All should be ambitious to prophesy”.
(But I suppose you would add to Paul’s teaching on prophesy by saying:
“All believers in the first century church should be ambitious to prophesy,
but for those of you who came to Christ afterwards, forget about it.”)
8. You missed the point entirely about post Pentecostal prophesy for the modern or latter day Church. Prophets in the church do not occupy the “Old Testament office of the Prophet”. They can’t. That time is past, the New Covenant is already in force and the Holy Spirit has been poured out “to teach you all things”. The prophecies in the Bible are God’s Word. Church “prophets” cannot add to the Word of God, Scripture is sealed.
9. I’m not sure what you mean by the Bereans possessing some of God’s progressive revelation. The Word of God does not evolve.
If you are trying to nitpick the manner by which the canon of Scripture was sealed in the first Century, you have to argue with God, who oversaw the whole thing, and Christ foretold how the NT would be written.
In other words, seeing “how the sausage was made” during the first century sealing of the canon of Scripture does not discredit the fact God organized it all. He is God Almighty. Putting the Bible together wasn’t too difficult for Him.
10. Anointing in the OT for King Saul and the anointing of King David has nothing to do with the pouring out of the free gift of the Holy Spirit upon all mankind at Pentecost. Not sure why you don’t know this.
OT anointing means equipping for a specific task, done in the proper order under the OT Law. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is the new universe of the promised Messianic age, that which the OT prophets longed to see but didn’t... because our era is “greater” than theirs in the Spirit.
We have a better thing than those believed before the Cross.
11. The order of water baptism before or after baptism of the Holy Spirit and its gifts doesn’t matter. Why does it matter to you?
The thief on the Cross with Christ was not baptized, but went to heaven. This proves our God mets us where we are at, even if we are hanging on a cross, slowly suffocating to death by crucifixion.
12. The bolding of the verses in Acts regarding John the Baptist’s disciples not knowing that they needed the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then how they prophesied and spoke in tongues is a model for modern day Christians.
Note Paul added no qualifier:
“Hey, you Christians who are born after all of us first-hand witnesses of Christ have died, let me warn you: if you try this baptism of the Holy Spirit yourselves, don’t count on prophesying or speaking in tongues, that’s only for us. You just aren’t special, and don’t forget it.”
13. The gifts did not cease. What “ceased” is the belief that the gifts are for today because of false teachings and rank unbelief of Cessationism, probably because believing in the supernatural or the Devil offends people’s pride.
Assuming the gifts aren’t for today doesn’t make it so, and certainly didn’t make it so in the first century.
Cessationism is equal to the heresy of the charismatic NAR and their counterfeits, and equal in its wounding of the sheep.
We are not to despise prophecies nor quench the Holy Spirit of God, but instead to be Bereans:
“test the spirits, my beloved, for not every spirit comes from God... (for) the spirit of antichrist, which you have heard is coming, is already in the world...”