Posted on 12/11/2017 1:50:26 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
A few months after becoming pastor of Parkway Baptist Church, a 21-year-old Armour D. Stephenson III, or “AD3” as he is affectionately known, sat down with his deacons — almost all men over 40 — and laid out plans for his own version of the great flood.
“The entire dynamic of our church was about to change,” AD3 recalls of the fateful 2006 meeting. His first decree: “Stop wearing suits on Sundays.”
The congregation’s response? An exodus. Membership dwindled from about 300 to a low of 85. “Any time you’re shifting culture, there’s going to be some casualties,” AD3 says.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansascity.com ...
Read the article before condemning a man who found a way to reach more people instead of only those who had suits....fancy clothes do not improve worship or carrying the Word....he gets it.
Same with my mother. :-)
“Contrast that with :
“I’m not worried about your sexuality right now. I’m not worried about what you did Saturday night. I’m worried about what do you know about Jesus and how can I tell you more about him. Not let me tell you why God is upset at you.”
But the first step is always coming to Christ in faith.
You don’t think dressing in a respectful manner is appropriate?!
Then I suggest you rethink the issue.
If you don’t think of a house of worship as God’s house
then I suggest you review the admonition to be an example to others and respect their views so as to not be an impediment in their seeking the Devine.
“But the first step is always coming to Christ in faith.”
Is it?
“He went into all the vicinity of the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins...” - Luke 3, concerning John the Baptist
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the good news!” - Jesus, Mark 1
“Repent,” Peter said to them, “and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and strongly urged them, saying, “Be saved from this corrupt generation!” - Peter, Acts 2
The “Good News” isn’t that God thinks you are good and He wants to help you be a better you. The Bad News is:
“Therefore, any one of you who judges is without excuse. For when you judge another, you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things. We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth. Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?” - Paul, Romans 2
I’m not suggesting that every sermon needs to be hellfire and brimstone. But it is utterly impossible to preach the Word if one skips something modern man HATES to hear:
“For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!”
How can ANYONE claim to preach the Gospel if they ignore the blood of Christ? And WHY was the blood of Christ shed? To help a good man become better? Because Jesus wants to be your new best friend? How can anyone preach on the death and resurrection of Jesus without mentioning WHY he went to the cross?
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God’s power to us who are being saved...For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God’s power and God’s wisdom, because God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.” - Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor 1)
I quoted Martin Luther because he obviously had seen, 500 years ago, the Comfortable Christianity I see in many ‘seeker churches’:
“It follows that if we preach the forgiveness of sins without repentance that the people imagine that they have already obtained the forgiveness of sins, becoming thereby secure and without compunction of conscience. This would be a greater error and sin than all the errors hitherto prevailing. Surely we need to be concerned lest...the last state becomes worse than the first...”
Our calling is NOT to make people feel good as they walk along the Broad Way whose end is Death. Our calling is NOT to offer an air-conditioned bus ride along the broad road. Without repentance, and something to repent FROM, all we do is speed them to hell!
“I’m worried about what do you know about Jesus and how can I tell you more about him.”
It is impossible to talk about the real Jesus without mentioning the Cross. It is impossible to talk about the real Jesus without mentioning the Blood. How can He be called the Lamb of God, if the seekers never hear what happens to the Lamb at Passover? And WHY would God do such a thing? The Cross makes no sense at all without the Day of Judgment. No one can “preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles” without saying WHY Jesus was crucified!
Without repentance, we just hurry them to Hell. And God WILL judge US if we do!
“He went into all the vicinity of the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins...” - Luke 3, concerning John the Baptist" “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the good news!” - Jesus, Mark 1
Yes, but this is Christ and the preparation of Christ by John the Baptist to the Jewish nation as Messiah. They were under the covenants and Law - and not keeping them. The message to them is different. And as you know, they rejected Christ as Messiah.
“Repent,” Peter said to them, “and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and strongly urged them, saying, “Be saved from this corrupt generation!” - Peter, Acts 2
Again, a message to Jews .
The “Good News” isn’t that God thinks you are good and He wants to help you be a better you.
And here, I do not attend the church, so I am limited to what I read in the article...
It seems you are generalizing from one statement that was not about the Good News to apply it to the Gospel message.
I’m not suggesting that every sermon needs to be hellfire and brimstone. But it is utterly impossible to preach the Word if one skips something modern man HATES to hear:
And we agree on this.
Our calling is NOT to make people feel good as they walk along the Broad Way whose end is Death.
Again, I believe you are generalizing from a statement that didn't apply to your concern.
May I ask if you have non-believers as neighbors? Do you preach repentance to them every time you see them in the back yard?
I've learned that with no relationship, people do not "hear" my words of testimony most of the time. Yes, I've shared the gospel in public settings with complete strangers and a handful of all those indicated they wanted to trust Christ. I do not know if they actually did.
When someone enters into some kind of trust, they are open to the rest of the message.
That isn't to be construed as not teaching the whole counsel of God.
I quoted Martin Luther because he obviously had seen, 500 years ago, the Comfortable Christianity I see in many ‘seeker churches’:
Blessed Saint Luther saw merit-based, works oriented messages and church corruption, instead of the gospel of grace and the payment of sin through the sacrifice of Christ.
“I’m worried about what do you know about Jesus and how can I tell you more about him.”True statement that expresses a heartfelt concern. Rarely seen in many churches.
It is impossible to talk about the real Jesus without mentioning the Cross. It is impossible to talk about the real Jesus without mentioning the Blood. How can He be called the Lamb of God, if the seekers never hear what happens to the Lamb at Passover? And WHY would God do such a thing? The Cross makes no sense at all without the Day of Judgment. No one can “preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles” without saying WHY Jesus was crucified!
We agree on these points. They do not, however, happen in the first minute.
“They were under the covenants and Law - and not keeping them. The message to them is different...Again, a message to Jews.”
Really? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the first part of Acts are not examples for us, since the preaching we find there and the Gospel presented there was to the Jews?
The Jews needed to repent, but the Gentiles do not?
“May I ask if you have non-believers as neighbors? Do you preach repentance to them every time you see them in the back yard?”
No, but I don’t “preach” to them at all. If they ASK, however...THEN I’ll simply tell them the truth. And the truth is that all have sinned. Me too, but them also. If they ask, I’ll point out the effect of sin on our society and on the lives of individuals.
A church is not where non-believers go to hear the Gospel. The church is there for believers. And believers need to confront and deal with sin in OUR lives. Most of the letters to NT churches include big sections dealing with sin in our lives. As believers. Huge parts of the NT discuss the blood of Christ and the Cross, none of which can be taught meaningfully without discussing the impact of sin and the need to repent.
So when someone says they don’t want to talk about God’s anger - well, GOD talks about it! It is in the Gospels. It is in the Epistles. No church can be true to the Word of God without mentioning it - often. Because the Bible is filled with it!
I wear jeans. My wife follows Bible texts using her phone. Me? I like paper. But THOSE are incidentals.
Talking about sin - about how it affects our lives before we were saved, and how it affects our lives after we are saved, and what God thinks of it and how we need to live changed lives - if a church doesn’t do that, then it is not true to God. It is lying to non-believers. It is lying to believers.
If we do not fear God, we do not comprehend who he is. And BOTH believers and non-believers need to fear God correctly. A good, short article can be found here:
“and the first part of Acts are not examples for us, since the preaching we find there and the Gospel presented there was to the Jews?”
It is all for our benefit, but is not all about us.
“A church is not where non-believers go to hear the Gospel.
Perhaps not in your church. In mine, many go who come to Christ.
“If they ASK, however...THEN I’ll simply tell them the truth.
Exactly my point.
“You don’t think dressing in a respectful manner is appropriate?!
Define respectful.
Define it for your own culture and for millennial culture and for the next generation after them.
Then I will know how to best answer your good question.
“If you don’t think of a house of worship as God’s house
A building is where “God’s houses” gather to worship, pray , fellowship and have the Lord’s Supper. God is concerned with your heart foremost.
If the bulk of the people in your pews are non-Christians, you have a evangelism meeting, not a church.
If the goal of the typical sermon (if it is called that) is about converting people, rather than growing converts, then you have an evangelistic meeting, not a church.
And if one cannot discuss what the Bible says about repenting, judgment, sin in our lives, doing good works, etc, for fear of offending non-believers, then you arguably don’t even have an evangelistic meeting. Just a country club for religious-minded people.
“It is all for our benefit, but is not all about us.”
The idea that the Jews need to repent because they had the Law, and Gentiles do not, would be foreign to the New Testament I’ve read.
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the good news!”
If that needs to be understood as applying to Jews but not Gentiles as well, then I think there is something wrong with what folks are teaching. That IS the Good News. And the Good News to Gentiles is that we can ALSO repent, believe, and become a part of the Kingdom.
If the bulk of the people in your pews are non-Christians, you have a evangelism meeting, not a church.I've not claimed anything different than what you post - as I've pointed out a couple times. It seems you are not listening.If the goal of the typical sermon (if it is called that) is about converting people, rather than growing converts, then you have an evangelistic meeting, not a church.
And if one cannot discuss what the Bible says about repenting, judgment, sin in our lives, doing good works, etc, for fear of offending non-believers, then you arguably don’t even have an evangelistic meeting. Just a country club for religious-minded people.
The idea that the Jews need to repent because they had the Law, and Gentiles do not, would be foreign to the New Testament I’ve read.
And again, that is not what I said. It seems you are not listening.
“But the first step is always coming to Christ in faith.”
The first step is recognizing you need a Savior.
“But the first step is always coming to Christ in faith.”The first step is recognizing you need a Savior.
Ah, two can play that game...
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. - Romans 10:17
The Word must be shared for anyone to know that they need a Savior.
It’s crazy, but in reading FReeper’s posts day in and day out, I form a mental image of folks.
And when I think of moovova, I envision Mickey Roarke in the movie The Wrestler, but with higher income and less druggy.
Disclosure: I once killed a man, just for snoring.
“Yes, but this is Christ and the preparation of Christ by John the Baptist to the Jewish nation as Messiah. They were under the covenants and Law - and not keeping them. The message to them is different....Again, a message to Jews .”
True but there is no point coming to Christ if you aren’t convinced you need him.
“It’s crazy, but in reading FReeper’s posts day in and day out, I form a mental image of folks.
And when I think of moovova, I envision Mickey Roarke in the movie The Wrestler, but with higher income and less druggy.”
Thank you...I think. At least you’re right about the “less druggy” part (cholesterol, HBP and lithium prescription meds aside).
It’s all fun & games until someone badmouths my fishing boat.
“Disclosure: I once killed a man, just for snoring.”
I DO choose to believe that.
I would never badmouth your fishing boat.
Please don’t bodyslam me!
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