Posted on 06/18/2017 2:20:09 PM PDT by narses
How many poor, benighted southern Americans have been hoodwinked by fake snake handling preachers over the centuries, I wonder? Did they attribute miracles to snake handling preacher PT Barnum showmanship?
You do yourself no favors with your comparison, but don't appear to realize this.
Yawn.....
Sounds as if you’re just a tad too comfortable and complacent. I suggest a good hard pew in a Primitive Baptist Church.
When Catholics pray to Mary they are not worshiping her, rather they are honoring her and asking for her intercession on their behalf — in fact, more than praying “to” her, we pray “with” Mary, asking her to pray with and for us. Do Catholics Worship Mary?
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
So, no, one should not pray to Mary to ask Christ for our needs. We are told in scripture to go directly to the Son. Saul tried an intermediary and it didn't go very well for him.
And, btw, according to your definition:
Would you really pray to someone who fits these qualifications? Your father perhaps? Your mother? Ronald Reagan? Me? :O)
‘They will still claim that when a Catholic does it it is idolatry, when a prod does it - if they believe, well then it is OK.’
This is akin to liberal logic. They take some action—perhaps a crime—in which conservatives are not engaged, and they set up a hypothetical wherein conservatives are committing that action. Then they devolve into an orgy of speculation and condemnation re conservatives for committing this deed—which in fact conservatives haven’t committed.
Same here. You postulate that the Ark of the Covenant still exists. (It likely doesn’t.) Then you posit that its discovery will cause non-Catholics to venerate it. This is probably projection. At a minimum, it’s worthless speculation. You see the world through Catholic eyes. You have no idea how non-Catholics would react to a historical item that you would be inclined to venerate. You fail to understand that we reserve worship and veneration for God alone.
Isaiah 42:8
“I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
I often have prayed at the request of others and they have when I ask. Your word warbling aside - and synonyms are NOT definitions - but you knew that, right - you are trying to claim that what we do as Catholics is what you claim we do. That is just ludicrous. BTW if that word is to big, try funny - as in stupid.
I can get along at a real Baptist service, they generally get the Bible readings right and usually have a pretty good idea of the moral code that governs Christians. They have no understanding of the Sacraments or the nuances of Grace, but among the heretical prods they come about as close to Catholic as I have seen. That said, they have pews very similar to the ones in the convent chapel I often attend - hard and designed to avoid drowsiness.
I suppose that’s as close to a compliment as I’ll ever get from you in these theological mud wrestling matches, so thank you.
It’s a fact.
So, I assume you're elevating yourself to the same status as Mary????
As far as "word warbling", there isn't much to warble about. There isn't a clear definition of what precisely "venerate" means within the Catholic Church. They just know-hey-it means something special (keep reading).
On one hand Catholics state they're to pray to Mary to intercede with Christ. According to the US Catholic organization, there are over 10,000 venerated saints. Why pick on Mary? She must be busy. What makes her so special?
On the other hand we have the above remark that veneration is no different than asking a neighbor to pray for them. That then again ask the question "Why Mary?"
From the Catholic dictionary:
This has to be one of the most stupid (e.g. ludicrous) statement of belief on New Advent that I have read. I can't even begin to parse this dribble. The idolater credits the image he reverences???? Does anyone REALLY believe that people of old actually thought that a stone statue of Baal or Zeus was, in fact, Baal or Zeus? When people prayed to an idol they were putting their faith in what that idol represented. During Elijah's time they prayed for Baal to come down from heaven-not that the stone statue of him would pop to life. Much to the Baal priests (oops-interesting term) sadness, it didn't work. And this definition of idolatry doesn't fit with what the scriptures states what idolatry actually is-faith in something other than Christ.
Sadly, there isn't any difference between praying to Baal or praying to Mary. But then Elijah had a difficult time convincing his crowd-even when God threw down fire from heaven.
” I can’t even begin to parse this dribble. “
Indeed.
‘Sadly, there isn’t any difference between praying to Baal or praying to Mary.”
ROTFLMAO! You are really going there? What a drooling and idiotic simile. But fitting.
Ahhhhh....such logic and reasoning. I’m sure the early church fathers would be proud of such elocution. However, you may have to translate ROTFLMAO for them as it’s not in the Greek.
Doesn’t the Catholic idea of asking Mary to intercede turn prayer into something more complicated than it needs to be? Or perhaps to express it more accurately, does it not seek to downplay the love God has for each one of us individually?
I’m assuming Catholics believe God is both omniscient and is love [see vs below]. That is what the Bible teaches.
If this is true, then God knows your prayer from the moment you conceive of it. [Strictly speaking, He knew about it from eternity, since He is above time and knows the end from the beginning.]
So imagine you offer a prayer to Mary, with the request that she intercede with God on your behalf.
God knows all this in advance. He knows your thoughts, your words, your feelings, etc. So how does Mary approach Him? Does she say, ‘That prayer that Narses prayed—the one you’ve already heard. I just want to especially urge You to answer it,’?
How does this not backfire? It implies that Mary cares more for you than your heavenly Father. It suggests that He might not adequately listen or respond without her intercession.
Jesus gave us a series of teachings under the rubric, ‘how much more,’. Here’s one of them:
Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
A need for Mary’s intercession suggests a deficiency in this teaching. Namely, that it should read, ‘How much more will your heavenly Father give to those on whose behalf Mary intercedes!’
This is simply not the case. God answers our prayers because He is good/He loves us. It all depends on Him—not on us, not on Mary, and not on anyone else.
Look at it like this. You need an intermediary when the party you’re trying to reach is too busy, or perhaps doesn’t know you personally and doesn’t love and care for you sufficiently. For example, let’s say you’re one of a dozen children. Your father is very busy, and anyway, you’ve always suspected he cares more for one or two of your siblings than for you.
One day you have a burning, urgent request. To make certain it gets the most favorable hearing, you ask your mother to present it to your father. He adores her, after all—and you’ve never doubted her love for you.
In real life this is a possible scenario. With God it isn’t. There’s no possibility of God’s love being insufficient for any one of us. If He did not withhold His only begotten Son from death on the cross, then His love is unconditional. Any other belief simply reflects a lack of faith in God’s goodness and love.
1 John 4:
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1 John 5:15
And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
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