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To: Mrs. Don-o
"Here's a research project: find me the first Christian theologian who dissented from this and labeled Mary a sinner. I bet you a pound cake and a quart of strawberries you can't find any before the 16th century."

I'll take that bet, but I insist on organic 🍓!

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“In contrast to the later belief in her moral and spiritual perfection, none of these theologians had the least scruple about attributing faults to her. Irenaeus and Tertullian recalled occasions on which, as they read the gospel stories, she had earned her Son’s rebuke, and Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, [HarperOne, 1978], p. 493).

Concerning Origen’s comments Kelly cites his work Homilies on Luke, 17. Romanist scholar Ludwig Ott gave an important admission stating, “individual Greek Fathers (Origen, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyril of Alexandria) taught that Mary suffered from venial personal faults, such as ambition and vanity, doubt about the message of the Angel, and lack of faith under the Cross” (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, [Tan Books and Publishers, 1960], p. 203).

Moreover, church historian Philip Schaff relayed that Irenaeus “was still widely removed from the notion of the sinlessness of Mary, and expressly declares the answer of Christ in John ii. 4, to be a reproof of her premature haste” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, [Hendrickson, 2011], p. 415). He also remarked, “In the same way Tertullian, Origen, Basil the Great, and even Chrysostom, with all their high esteem of the mother of our Lord, ascribe to her on one or two occasions (John ii. 3; Matt. Xiii. 47) maternal vanity, also doubt and anxiety, and make this the sword (Luke ii. 35) which, under the cross, passed through her soul” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, [Hendrickson, 2011], pp. 415-416).

Roman Catholic patristic scholar Luigi Gambero concedes that John Chrysostom “does not hesitate to attribute defects and imperfections to Mary . . . he interprets certain Gospel passages in such a way as to attribute defects to the virgin Mary such as unbelief or vanity” (Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought, [Ignatius Press, 1999], p. 172). These are sins and all sin is incompatible with the doctrine of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. Gambero also admits Basil of Caesarea “considers himself justified in affirming that the Virgin’s holiness was not totally without shadow. He refers to the doubt that she suffered at the moment of her Son’s Passion, which Simeon had foretold, using the metaphor of the sword” (Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought, [Ignatius Press, 1999], p. 148).

It is germane to highlight here Philip Schaff’s remark that “Jerome taught the universal sinfulness without any exception, Adv. Pelag. ii, 4” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, [Hendrickson, 2011], p. 418 n. 2).

Cyril of Alexandria (A. D. 376 – 444) also taught that Mary sinned in severe ways thereby holding to a position in opposition to an immaculate conception:

“For, doubtless, some such train of thought as this passed through her mind: ‘I conceived Him That is mocked upon the Cross. He said, indeed, that He was the true Son of Almighty God, but it may be that He was deceived; He may have erred when He said: I am the Life. How did His crucifixion come to pass? and how was He entangled in the snares of His murderers? How was it that He did not prevail over the conspiracy of His persecutors against Him? And why does He not come down from the Cross, though He bade Lazarus return to life, and struck all Judaea with amazement by His miracles?" The woman, as is likely, not exactly understanding the mystery, wandered astray into some such train of thought” (Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, Book 12).

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/10/the-early-church-did-not-believe-romes.html?m=1

1,010 posted on 05/22/2017 12:03:56 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Wish I’d got in on that action!


1,026 posted on 05/22/2017 12:55:12 PM PDT by ealgeone
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