Posted on 04/03/2017 7:45:32 AM PDT by Salvation
In John 3:14-18 Jesus notes the requirement of belief for eternal life.
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." NASB
34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:34-36 NASB
The Samaritans understood salvation was through faith in Jesus.
39From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41Many more believed because of His word; 42and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.” John 4:39-42 NASB
The nobleman also understood salvation was through belief in Jesus.
53So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives”; and he himself believed and his whole household. 54This is again a second sign that Jesus performed when He had come out of Judea into Galilee. John 4:53-54 NASB
When Jesus was in discussion with unbelieving Jews He made it clear in this exchange eternal life came from believing.
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB
All of these events were before John 6.
Either Jesus was lying about eternal life or the Roman Catholic position is wrong.
The RCC position misunderstands what poured out means in relation to the blood in the OT and that His blood was poured out for us.
The RCC would have Jesus violating the OT Law in telling people to drink His blood which would mean He is a sinner.
We know Jesus did not sin.
Hence, the RCC position is wrong.
You can believe whatever you want, but it is contrary to what Jesus taught.
Not based on the above. The RCC position is incorrect. We come to Jesus through faith. We believe in Him.
Your presumption that you know more than Jesus amazes me.
I've not claimed to know more than Jesus.
However, the same argument could be turned around on the RCC.
However, based on the context of John 6 and John and the NT, the RCC position is incorrect.
I do not understand how you claim to “appropriate Christ” a) to take exclusive possession or c) to take or make use of without authority or right? (Webster’s Dictionary)
Allow me to rephrase....to believe or come to faith. So do you believe “The Word became Flesh?”
Yes. Except, let's have to whole sentence for context.
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 NASB
I don’t agree that consuming God’s Body and Blood that was given for our salvation was intended to be against the old testament.
The RCC position does contradict the OT. Consuming the blood was against the OT Law.
On the contrary, Jesus (God) commanded us to take and eat and drink His Body and His Blood for eternal life.
Do this in remembrance of Me is how Paul recorded it.
If the RCC position is correct that one is saved through the Eucharist only...when were Peter and the disciples saved?
If we are to take the RCC position that Jesus is literally saying we are to eat and drink His flesh and blood do you get hungry or thirsty? If you cannot answer in the negative that you don't have to eat or drink food and water then the RCC position is again wrong. If you try to spiritualize this then your position is wrong again.
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
So which is it? Do you get hungry or thirsty?
You deny the words of Jesus and make up your own meaning of His words.
You can state many different passages of the Bible or even the whole Bible, but it does not change the Word of God or its meaning nor have you refuted the words and meaning of Jesus.
You either have Faith in all the words of Jesus or you pick and choose.
Your answer should either be a yes or a no.
Do you mean that John 6 does not have a literal Jesus in mind?
When Jesus told his disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, was that literal?
Same question to you.
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
Have either of you cut off your hand or gouged out your eye?
Again, you do see or read the words of Jesus (or just ignore what you choose not to believe):
“Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b John 6
Just seek the Truth and trust Jesus.
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. John 6:35 NASB
Do you read the words of Jesus or just ignore and choose what to believe?
Same discourse. Same audience.
I'll ask again you and any Roman Catholic...if you believe this passage is to be taken literally...do you get hungry or thirsty?
Yes. I believe Jesus made that statement and he made his position clear.
Yes it is better to lose a part of your body than to lose everlasting life with Jesus. I hope you understand that teaching. Many do not understand that teaching.
Yes it is better to lose a part of your body than to lose everlasting life with Jesus. I hope you understand that teaching. Many do not understand that teaching.
Have you cut off a hand or cut out an eye in that case?
I’ll ask again you and any Roman Catholic...if you believe this passage is to be taken literally...do you get hungry or thirsty?
Your gotcha question? Is this so you can ignore the words of Jesus that you do not like? Seems so.
To answer your question. Yes I believe in the words of Jesus and have Faith in Him even if I don’t understand or can explain to others fully the mysteries of Jesus. I believe that Jesus is the Truth.
For your information (not that it seems to change your thinking), there are many saints that have lived on the nourishment of Eucharist. Check out St Catherine of Siena 1380; St Jonathan 1328; St Ida 569; St Nicholas of Flue, Switzerland; St Joseph Cupertino 1663.
The verse 35 does not contradict “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”
It seems like you can’t accept the Words of Jesus and you keep trying to challenge Jesus.
Peace.
And then you seriously expect us to think that God and Jesus would violate the very law they handed down at Mt. Sinai and what they established as a perpetual ordinance for all generations, and that the Holy Spirit even reiterated at the Council at Jerusalem that we shouldn't eat blood, and command us to do something in direct violation of that Law? And you would seriously expect us to accept that that interpretation is the correct one?
It's not.
Because Jesus even called the cup *the fruit of the vine* and told us in John 6:63 that the words He had spoken were SPIRITUAL truths, not physical ones.
The words He spoke are Spirit and life, the flesh is NO HELP AT ALL.
Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The Catholic interpretation is wrong because it violates every single other passage of Scripture about consuming blood. It cannot mean literal eating and drinking of literal flesh and blood because Jesus said it wasn't.
It must mean figurative as Jesus told us it meant.
Matthew 23: 8-10 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
Ealgeone’s question is valid.
If you’re going to take John 6 literally, then be consistent and take it ALL literally.
It’s wrong to pick and choose what part of a passage to interpret as literal and what part to interpret as figurative all on a verse by verse basis.
Jesus said, I am the bread of life. Was He made of wheat flour?
He said if you eat and drink, you will never hunger or thirst again.
It’s wrong to demand literal eating and then excuse away the literal never hungering or thirsting.
If Jesus isn’t made out or wheat flour and you hunger and thirst, then there is no basis for demanding a very few select verses must be taken literally expect that it is happening simply to try to support a favorite, unscriptyural doctrine.
What the rest of Scripture has to say on the subject IS very important and MUST BE taken into account. Scripture cannot contradict itself because God doesn’t contradict Himself.
And the Catholic interpretation demands that God contradict Himself and change His Law, which Jesus said would NEVER pass away.
It's not a gotcha question. It's a find out if you believe the words are literal as told by the RCC.
That you will not answer the question about whether you get hungry or thirsty, which is a simple yes or no answer, tells me a lot.
Is this so you can ignore the words of Jesus that you do not like? Seems so.
I'm not ignoring His Word. I'm understanding it in context.
When He asked the disciples if they wanted to leave what was their reply?
67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69“We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” John 6: 67-69 NASB
The Greek words for believed and come to know both indicate a faith based belief in Jesus. These are both in the Perfect Tense indicating something completed in the past has results in the present time in relation to the time of the speaker (Wallace, Greek Grammer, Beyond the Basics, p573).
There is nothing in their reply to indicate they have either eaten or drunk His blood...which would be kind of hard to do as He was alive at that time.
That He was still alive and the disciples were already believing in Him further negates the RCC position that the Eucharist is the means of salvation or is necessary for salvation.
In none of the prior verses I referenced in John prior to this encounter was there any mention of eating/drinking of His blood as a requirement for salvation.
To answer your question. Yes I believe in the words of Jesus and have Faith in Him even if I don’t understand or can explain to others fully the mysteries of Jesus. I believe that Jesus is the Truth.
However, that was not the question.
I'll repeat it again....if you believe this passage is to be taken literally...do you get hungry or thirsty?
It's a simple yes or no answer.
It's not a mystery question. If you believe Jesus said we have to literally eat/drink then you have to literally believe v35 in that you will never get hungry or thirsty.
I'd be willing to wager you got hungry and thirsty today.
It seems like you've elected to decide which words are literal and which ones aren't.
I'll ask my other question....Have you cut off a hand or cut out an eye in light of what He said in Matthew? A simple yes or no is your answer.
Your comment: “Jesus said, I am the bread of life. Was He made of wheat flour?”
He changed the Bread into His Body and Blood at the Last Supper.
He told us to eat and drink His Body and Blood as real food.
You keep trying to confuse what Jesus told us.
Your opinion: “And the Catholic interpretation demands that God contradict Himself and change His Law, which Jesus said would NEVER pass away.”
No, they were the Words of Jesus, the Truth, which you do not accept.
You may learn the Truth on Judgement Day.
Scripture doesn't say that He did that.
That is the Catholic church interpretation.
He told us to eat and drink His Body and Blood as real food.
And He told us that if we ate and drank we'd never hunger or thirst. Do Catholics get hungry and thirsty again after partaking of communion?
You keep trying to confuse what Jesus told us.
No, no confusion on what I say because what I've posted does not contradict the rest of the body of revealed Scripture.
The confusion comes from trying to explain away what Catholics keep telling us: how that Jesus violated the very Law He passed down at Mt. Sinai.
No, they were the Words of Jesus, the Truth, which you do not accept.
I do accept Jesus' words as truth. ALL of His words, not just the ones which support the doctrine I like the best.
We don't need to wait until Judgment Day to learn the Truth because we have Scripture to tell us what the Truth is, and the Trust is.....
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus gave us figurative teaching to teach a spiritual truth, something He did quite regularly.
Is the word literally milk? No. No one understands it that way. Well, I don't know the Roman Catholic understanding of this as the RCC hasn't put out a definitive teaching on the verse from Paul that I'm aware of.
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