Judging non-Catholics

OSV.com ^ | 08-17-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[metmom]

Here is the *REAL* presence. And it isn't Jesus living in a wafer.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

Acts 17:24-25 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith-that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Colossians 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Christ IN me, the hope of glory.

Christ dwelling in our HEARTS through FAITH, not passing through our digestive tract by ingestion, in our presence when we gather together as Christians.

God does not live in temples made by human hands.

Those days are gone.

[daniel1212]

How many ex cathedra statements have you found out to have ever been made?

Note that ex cathedra statements only refer to papal ones, but which does not constitute all the teachings considered to be "infallible, incapable of erring. And which is necessary to ascertain in order to yield the required assent of faith. Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

As to your ?,

Different Roman Catholic apologists have asserted very divergent numbers of ex cathedra papal statements. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and the doctrine of the Bodily Assumption of Mary were taught infallibly by Popes Pius IX and Pope Pius XII in 1854 and 1950, respectively. Hahn has proposed a two-statement canon of ex cathedra papal statements. But apologist Tim Staples says there are at least four, and likely very many more...

As evidence that the dilemma is not limited merely to a few teachings, the Roman Catholic is invited to consider the much longer list compiled by Roman Catholic priest Leslie Rumble in his book, That Catholic Church. In this book he provides his opinion that there have been 18 ex cathedra papal statements throughout Roman Catholic history. Not only does Rumble's list contain considerably more statements than Hahn's or Staples', it also contains two caveats indicating that the degree of certainty of the reliability of this (or any) list is in doubted. - http://www.examiningbeliefs.com/apol75.htm

Bishop Vincent Gasser, spokesman for the deputation “de fide” (the committee of Conciliar Fathers charged with drafting the solemn definition), delivered a four-hour speech explaining and defending the draft which was submitted to the assembled Fathers for their vote. Gasser is quoted no less than four times in the official footnotes to “Lumen Gentium” 25, which treats of infallibility…

In replying to some Fathers who urged that the procedures or form to be used by the pope in arriving at an infallible decision (i.e., his grave moral duty to pray for guidance, diligently consult the existing teaching of the Church, etc.) be included in the definition, Gasser replied: But, most eminent and reverend fathers, this proposal simply cannot be accepted because we are not dealing with something new here. "Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have gone forth from the apostolic See;" where is the law which prescribed the form to be observed in such judgments?

In other words, Gasser was able to assert "in passing"--that is, as something which did not need arguing and would be taken for granted by his audience-- that there had already been "thousands and thousands" of infallible definitions issued by the Roman see! - http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/papalinfallibility.pdf (EO source)

[Gamecock]

**So who is going to interpret the interpretation?**

I have said that dozens of times.
Who is right? Francis? The local priest? The FRoman Catholic who thinks they are more Catholic than the Pope??

Like nailing jello to a wall.

[af_vet_1981]

That refers to those who are being taught, and which flock only the faithful servant clearly belongs to, and obviously does not mean that all the examples used in this teaching that follows were saved.

The Messiah warned those servants of the LORD being taught by calling them "Little flock" and listed the consequences if they did not do their reasonable service. Only one of three are expelled from His house when He returns from His wedding, to be with the unbelievers.

[metmom]

Pius 9, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff..”
-http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus: “There are other, almost countless, proofs drawn from the most trustworthy witnesses which clearly and openly testify with great faith, exactitude, respect and obedience that all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff." Pope Pius IX, Amantissimus (On The Care Of The Churches), Encyclical promulgated on April 8, 1862, # 3.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P9AMANT2.HTM

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem March 17, 1856): “There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church. (On the Unity of the Catholic Church)
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9singul.htm

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos: Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius [the eastern “Orthodox” schismatics] and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls?...Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned...” Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, PTC:873) The Promotion of True Religious Unity), 11, Encyclical promulgated on January 6, 1928, #11;
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

Pius XII, Humani Generis (27,28): "Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation...These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons."
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Fifth Lateran Council: Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore...renew and give our approval to that constitution... Fifth Lateran CouncilSession 11, 19 December 1516,
http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum18.htm

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV: "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours." — Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215) [considered infallible by some]

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. — Vatican 1, Ses. 4, Cp. 1

The COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE under Pope John XXIII condemned the proposition of Wycliff that “It is not necessary for salvation to believe that the Roman church is supreme among the other churches.” [inasmuch as it would deny the primacy of the supreme pontiff over the other individual churches.] — Session 8—4 May 1415;
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/CONSTANC.HTM

St. Thomas Aquinas: It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if we imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals [Greeks] says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.” — St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm#b38

St. Frances Xavier Cabrini: "Many Protestants have almost the same practices as we, only they do not submit to the Holy Father and attach themselves to the true Ark of Salvation. They do not want to become Catholics and unite themselves under the banner of truth wherein alone there is true salvation. Of what avail is it, children, if Protestants lead naturally pure, honest lives, yet lack the Holy Ghost? They may well say: 'We do no harm; we lead good lives'; but, if they do not enter the true fold of Christ, all their protestations are in vain." St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, "Travels", Chicago: 1944, pp. 84, 71.

St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke: "The Lord severed the Jewish people from His kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church. Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." — St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke", ch.7, 91-95; PL 15; SS, vol. II, p. 85, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: "The Book of Christians", Chapter 2: "Those Who Reject Christ's Church are Anti-Christian").http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic4chp2.html

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: (Promulgated November 18, 1302) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

"If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

And now the Catholic church in the CCC allows for salvation outside, it?

And that's not *change* hange, but *development of doctrine*?

Horse hockey.

It's change and anyone not desperate to defend Catholicism can see it for what it is.

[af_vet_1981]

which flock only the faithful servant clearly belongs to,

That servant, in whom the Messiah finds no fault, is made ruler over all His household. It seems incongruent to think of all the flock as the chief steward or even all the sheep as shepherds. It may refer to the question among the Apostles as to which of them would be given to sit at Messiah's right hand as ruler over all His house, whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. We shall all pass before the judgement seat of King Messiah. Let us strive to do what He told us to do.

[metmom]

What I’ve noticed is that Catholics tend to post threads that promote Catholicism and keep people abreast on the happenings within the Catholic church. They strongly contend for people joining the Catholic church, even as far as claiming they are not saved for not doing so.

The thread s posted by non-Catholic Christians are the prayer threads, the devotional threads, Bible study threads, the threads that encourage right relationship with Christ, and don’t ever, that I can ever recall seeing, try to encourage or bully or threaten people with hell-fire for NOT joining their own denomination.

I have almost no idea of where most of the other non-Catholic Christians who post on this forum attend church, or what their denominational affiliation is and it doesn’t matter!

I. DON’T. CARE.

If they have come to Christ in faith for forgiveness and are born again/born from above, that’s good enough for me, whether I agree with them on everything or not.

It sure is interesting, though, to notice the focus of the Catholics vs the non-Catholics.

One is on a church. The other is on Christ.

[Resettozero]

I’ve read these posts of yours. Would you briefly summarize the point(s) you are attempting to make?

[Arrian]

Hm................unfortunately your muddled syntax confuses rather than clarifies.
Assent? One is a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Jew and so on, when one accepts and adheres to the teachings of their faith. Otherwise they are not, irrespective what they assert.
The Pontiff is infallible only on matters Faith and Morals, when speaking Ex-Cathedra; “from his Chair”.
Roman Catholicism is most certainly not some sort of democratic forum where everyone gets to ventilate his/her opinion and decide what they will accept/reject.
It is an ‘other worldly’ religion focused of the eternal.
Again, if one accepts and adheres to its teachings one is a Roman Catholic; otherwise one is not.
If you’re looking for a starting point for the teachings of the Church, begin reading the Creeds; Apostolic, Nicene and so on.

[metmom]

Fascinating stuff.

Stuff I was never told as a Catholic.

I wonder if we are going to hear more than crickets from FRoman Catholics?

[metmom]

amihow.

Please ping me to your comments on dan’s post.

[ADSUM]

Your comment: “Which reasoning supports rejecting the example of David and water being blood, and many others as being figurative. “

I disagree. I understand and accept the words of Jesus. He was very clear on the meaning.

Just because you can’t accept the actual words and meaning of the Word or Jesus Christ doesn’t make your spin and personal interpretation the Truth from God.

You either believe that Christ spoke the Truth or you do not believe. It does require Faith in Jesus.

At Mass the priest does exactly what Christ told him to do at the Last Supper. He does not say, “This is Christ’s body,” but “This is my body.” These words produce the whole substance of Christ’s body. In the same way the words of consecration produce the whole substance of Christ’s blood. They are Christ’s body and blood, as they are now living in heaven. There, in heaven, his body and blood are united with his soul and Godhead. The accidents or appearances of his human body are in heaven too. They are present, therefore, in the Holy Eucharist.

Peace be with you.

[metmom]

Exactly.

And they rail against *YOPIOS*?

There is more unity and agreement in each of our personal interpretations across denominational lines that exists within Catholicism, especially evident after reading dan’s post 511.

[metmom]

The Pontiff is infallible only on matters Faith and Morals, when speaking Ex-Cathedra; “from his Chair”.

Therefore everything else he says or anyone else says IS fallible.

Then what basis is there for trusting it to be true and hanging your eternal salvation on it?

[metmom]

Again, if one accepts and adheres to its teachings one is a Roman Catholic; otherwise one is not.

Which Roman Catholic teachings?

Trent?

VI?

VII?

CCC?

Only ex catherda ones, the ones that are supposed to be infallible for which there isn't even an infallible, consistent list?

[Gamecock]

**Roman Catholicism, unable to show a continuity of faith and in order to justify new doctrine, erected in the last century, a theory of “doctrinal development.**

Who had this first, Rome or Salt Lake City?

[Resettozero]

These words produce the whole substance of Christ’s body. In the same way the words of consecration produce the whole substance of Christ’s blood. They are Christ’s body and blood, as they are now living in heaven. There, in heaven, his body and blood are united with his soul and Godhead. The accidents or appearances of his human body are in heaven too. They are present, therefore, in the Holy Eucharist.

Now you can plainly see that what you have written is of your own understanding of what you have been told is happening and is not to be found in any instructions from Jesus of Nazareth or any of the Apostle's writings/sayings...the Bible.

And there is the rub with the parties involved in this hit-piece of a thread. "Holy Eucharist" is a non-Scriptural phrase and is a concept not ordained or even found in the Holy Bible and, most plainly in the rcc's mangled interpretation of what Jesus plainly said and which has been confirmed in multiple posts on this thread alone.

One could make an entire renegade Christian sect out of such a doctrine as you espouse. And, apparently, a well-populated sect.

[Resettozero]

...Apostles’ (plural)...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"I discovered salvation is in a relationship, not in some church organization, no matter how much some may claim otherwise. "

+1

[ealgeone]

He also calls Him down from Heaven to be placed upon the altar a thousand times and Jesus humbly does what the priest says to do according to Catholic priest John O'Brien in the Faith of Millions.

All of which flies against Hebrews 9 (IIRC) that notes Christ is a one time sacrifice.

And He's still seated at the Father's side. He has not left Heaven and does not do so to be sacrificed again.