Posted on 08/14/2016 2:49:24 PM PDT by ADSUM
What are the twelve traits of authority, and how do they work?
First of all, it seems clear that their decision would have to be made from a historical perspective. It was not good enough to decide complex moral, social, or doctrinal issues based on popularity polls or yesterday’s newspaper. To decide difficult questions, a valid authority has to be historical.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
That’s because “conservative” doesn’t necessarily mean someone who knows what the Church taught prior to Vatican II.
“They do not hesitate to put forward the view which is not only opposed to the Catholic Church, but very pernicious for the salvation of souls — an opinion which Gregory XVI, Our Predecessor, called absurd. This is the view that liberty of conscience and worship is the strict right of every man, a right which should be proclaimed and affirmed by law in every properly constituted state... When they rashly make these statements, they do not realize or recall to mind that they are advocating what St. Augustine calls a liberty of perdition” -Pope Pius IX, Quanta Cura
Religious liberty, Vatican II to present:
“This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom... The Council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person, as this dignity is known through the revealed Word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed; thus it is to become a civil right.” - Vatican II
Thank you for your blessing; may it return to you twofold.
I don’t generally post on the religious forums, but I regularly read them. I have, believe me, seen your posts and read many of them. Your wisdom and godly insights have been inspirations to me—thank you.
It’s no wonder the same issues must be repeatedly addressed, yet seem never to yield profitable results. Some errors are simply pernicious.
For an example, look at Jesus’s interactions with the Pharisees. Although it was Christ Himself who argued with them, there is no Biblical evidence that a single Pharisee [of those Jesus directly confronted] ever repented. Embracing their error was more important to them than embracing Christ.
What, specifically, was their error? It was the use of man-made traditions to set aside the actual Word of God.
Does this happen today? Absolutely.
To give but one example: Jesus was asked, by the Samaritan woman—John 4— where true worship should take place. Specifically, the woman asked if God should be worshipped, ‘on this mountain or in Jerusalem.’
Jesus answered, neither. Rather, the time of physical-location based worship was over, and the time of spiritual/heart-based worship had arrived. Iow, from now on, true worship would depend not on place, but on being done, “in spirit and truth.”
Do some deny Jesus’s teaching on this subject?
Yes, some do.
Some say that when Jesus said true worship should be done in spirit and truth, what he *meant* was, ‘in Rome.’
Put another way, some turn Jesus’s words on their head, and then disregard them completely.
This was the Pharisees’ error. It’s still with us today. The allure of discounting God’s Word in favor of a more appealing man-made tradition is simply too great for some. Evidently, it always will be.
[Note to any taking offense at this post. It is now publicly acknowledged that a Gay Mafia exerts tremendous influence at the highest levels in Vatican City. It is impossible to argue that “in spirit and truth,” means condoning the Sodom and Gomorrah practices of a Gay Mafia. The day Rome completely and utterly purges the highest echelons of its hierarchy from the malevolent influence of the Gay Mafia is the day worship, “in spirit and truth,” can make a comeback there.]
The Apostle Paul answered your question/dilemma in Philippians 3:
15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
Please note Paul’s words carefully. He does not say, if any have a different attitude, assembly-authority [which is a more accurate translation of the Greek than,’church-authority’] will resolve the problem. He says, “God will reveal that also to you.”
Two points. God WILL reveal His truths to us if we seek them. This promise is made repeatedly in Scripture. However, (point Two), some do not desire God’s truth. They are too mired in one error or another to wholly and prayerfully submit to God’s guidance. That doesn’t invalidate Paul’s prescription for acquiring wisdom and insights; it simply explains why errors persist.
So how is one person to know when he is in error? Up until 1930ish... All Christian denominations scrripturally showed and believed that artificial birth control was sinful... Then the episcopalians caved and said it was ok... Then most followed suit. So the question follows... We’re Christians properly interpreting the scriptures for the first 2000 years? Or have they only been properly interpreted just he last 100?
What is the Biblical teaching on this issue? What does God, in His revealed Word, say? What did Jesus during His Incarnation say? What do the NT writers, in their God-breathed texts, say?
You left out sola ecclesia
Well apparently he text says that it was wrong...onanism I believe was the concept. This was the belief for the Christian world until relatively recently. So the question is... How does one know what is right... Here is an example of the same texts.. Different interpretation...
Could you cite the specific Biblical text, in context? Thank you in advance.
“So how is one person to know when he is in error?”
“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” - John 16:13
For context:
“I have not spoken like this to you before, because I have been with you; 5-11 but now the time has come for me to go away to the one who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ That is because you are so distressed at what I have told you. Yet I am telling you the simple truth when I assure you that it is a good thing for you that I should go away. For if I did not go away, the divine helper would not come to you. But if I go, then I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convince the world of the meaning of sin, of true goodness and of judgment. He will expose their sin because they do not believe in me; he will reveal true goodness for I am going away to the Father and you will see me no longer; and he will show them the meaning of judgment, for the spirit which rules this world will have been judged.
12-15 “I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. Yet when that one I have spoken to you about comes—the Spirit of truth—he will guide you into everything that is true. For he will not be speaking of his own accord but exactly as he hears, and he will inform you about what is to come. He will bring glory to me for he will draw on my truth and reveal it to you. Whatever the Father possesses is also mine; that is why I tell you that he will draw on my truth and will show it to you.”
No easy answers. After all, as Peter put it:
“This is the second letter I have written to you, dear friends of mine, and in both of them I have tried to stimulate you, as men with minds uncontaminated by error, by simply reminding you of what you really know already. For I want you to remember the words spoken of old by the holy prophets as well as the commands of our Lord and saviour given to you through his messengers...
...Meanwhile, consider that God’s patience is meant to be man’s salvation, as our dear brother Paul pointed out in his letter to you, written out of the wisdom God gave him. In that letter, as indeed in all his letters, he referred to these matters. There are, of course, some things which are difficult to understand, and which, unhappily, ill-informed and unbalanced people distort (as they do the other scriptures), and bring disaster on their own heads.
17-18 But you, my friends whom I love, are forewarned, and should therefore be very careful not to be carried away by the errors of wicked men and so lose your proper foothold.” - 2 Peter 3
Notice: Peter doesn’t say “Your Bishops will tell you what is right or wrong, and you can trust my successors, who will be the Vicar of Jesus Christ Himself!”
Nope. No reference to clinging to “The True Church”, but instead:
“...remember the words spoken of old by the holy prophets as well as the commands of our Lord and saviour given to you through his messengers...In that letter, as indeed in all his letters, he referred to these matters. There are, of course, some things which are difficult to understand, and which, unhappily, ill-informed and unbalanced people distort (as they do the other scriptures), and bring disaster on their own heads.”
No church can carry you past Heaven’s portal.
Thank you for the link. Below is the original Biblical text, from Genesis 38. Please read it carefully, and see if you can identify the specific sin that is so harshly condemned by God:
6 Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was evil in the sight of the Lord, so the Lord took his life. 8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted [or ‘spilled’] his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. 10 But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.
Very, very good texts, and extremely pertinent to the discussion.
Post 91 was supposed to be addressed to you. Somehow I pinged myself instead. Anyway, the text is in 91, and we can discuss it from there.
Still doesn’t explain how one can just magically know if he is in error... How many denominations are there now ... And all are certain and believe they are correct
Still doesn’t explain how one can just magically know if he is in error... How many denominations are there now ... And all are certain and believe they are correct
Where do any of the texts use the word ‘magic’? Does the promise that the Holy Spirit will guide us in “all truth,” involve magic?
Much fewer than than the number of private Catholic belief systems.
Bad choice of words... My dilemma is simply this... Two different people can read the same bible... Have a different idea of what they are reading... And both are convinced that they are correct. Without someone else to demonstrate that they might be in error... They will remain nicely in error through no fault of their own. If someone reads some passage of scripture and presents their interpretation to you... And they obviously in error... y what standard do you know they are in error? Your interpretation? Who says yours is right? Who says his isn’t...
There are two answers to your questions, but in order to maintain focus, let’s take them one at a time. First, you raised the issue of birth control, and cited the example of Onan. In post 91, I’ve quoted everything the Bible has to say about Onan’s actions and judgement. It’s not a long text. Please read it, and see if you can identify the sin or sins for which God judged Onan.
“Still doesn’t explain how one can just magically know if he is in error...”
There is no magic.
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” - 1 Cor 12
“When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.” - Ephesians 1:13-14
“You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” - Romans 8
“For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.” - 1 Corinthians 2
No church and no church office can substitute for the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the true Vicar of Christ.
Vicar: “a person who acts in place of another; substitute”.
Jesus made it clear: “For if I did not go away, the divine helper would not come to you. But if I go, then I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convince the world of the meaning of sin, of true goodness and of judgment.”
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