Is the Pope Catholic? - The Greatest Schism in Catholic Church History!

Spiritual Food Blogspot ^ | May 10, 2016 | Rev. Joseph Dwight

[MHGinTN]

You asked (rhetorically we presume), “To whom does Mary pray?”
If Mary died, she is absent from the body, so we presume her spirit is present with the Lord, In Heaven. She has no need to pray since she is in the Presence of The Lord. She is more likely worshipping Him there. But your question was rhetorical since as a catholic you believe she was assumed from the Earth without dying.

Then you asked (doubtless making axiomatic the assumption you hold to be the truth), "In whom does Mary put all her hope an trust?"
Since Mary's spirit is in God's Presence, we would not entertain that Mary's spirit would blaspheme by putting trust in anyone but Her God in Whose Presence she is now, in spirit.

Finally, you asserted, in question form, "To whom does Mary pour out her heart?"
Since Mary's spirit is the Presence of The Lord, your stumbling conclusion, though posed in question form, is a flawed end to a fractured syllogism.

Underlying all of your rhetorical questions is the catholic presumption (based upon what you have had drummed into your mind) that Mary is alive in bodily form, in Heaven, and is accessible by your worship of her, or should I say adoration (worship by any other name)?

These presuptions are nowhere to be found in The Word of God. They are fabrications by the papacy and magicsteeringthem of catholiciism:
in 310AD the catholic hierarchy instituted formal prayer for the dead;
in 325AD the same Heirarchy of your org instituted the 'adoration' of saints;
in 432AD formal declaration of Mariology, or worship of Mary was made dogma;
in 606AD the claim of papal supremacy was formalized;
in 650AD a feast was instituted to honor Mary;
in 1076 the dogma of papal infallibility was declared;
in 1090 prayer beads were adopted as a means to insure repetitive uttering of prayers dictated by 'the church';
in 1220AD adoration of the wafer for Mass was instituted;
in 1439AD the doctrine of Purgatory was decreed foundational to catholiciism, a decree that made way for prayers to Mary in order to shorten or avoid purgatorial purging;
in 1854AD the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception was formalized;
in 1950AD the Assumption of Mary was formalized as Church doctrine.

The process of making way to put Mary into goddess status took centuries, but here it is, now the focus of sincere humans being duped into 'another religion', not the ekklesia of Jesus The Christ.

[MHGinTN]

Since Mary's spirit is in the Presence of The Lord

[Mrs. Don-o]

The "relatively few" Scripture passages whose meaning has been determined authoritatively by the Catholic Church, are matters of the most crucial significance. An example would be the Scriptures which bear on the Incarnation, the Trinity, the fact that there is One God Whose three Persons are consubstantial (one in Being); Christ is a single Person who has two natures (Divine and human) --- what is historically called a Catholic or Nicene Christology.

There are other examples, but that would be the chief one.

The official role of the Church is often to make negative statements ("Let it not be said that there was a time when the Son was not" --- contra Arias.) The Church would not have been moved to make that particular statement, probably, had the Alexandrian priest Arias not taught that the Son is a created being, and thus stirred up a huge controversy which threatened the unity of the Church.

And that is an important thing to keep in mind. The Church doesn't possess a Big Book of Scripture Interpretation which interprets the 73 books of the Bible line by line. Nor do we have an oracle who dispenses Magisterial statements based on personal genius or dictation of the Holy Spirit.

The Church only makes definitive rulings when impelled to do so by controversy or conflict. When She does so, it is not to invent some new doctrine, but to clarify what the meaning of something she already possesses: She "earnestly contends for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

There are fools like Dan Brown who say that the Church did not believe that Jesus Christ was God until the Council of Nicaea, at which time this doctrine was invented and imposed on believers. One could ask, "If the Church always believed that, why wasn't that belief decreed and canonized until 325 AD?" The reason why, is because nobody had ever disputed Christ's divinity in this way before, so seriously that it threatened a breach in the Church, until Arias.

The same can be said about the development of any doctrine.

Another very important example is the very canon of OT Scripture, which was already used in the liturgy by the earliest churches, before the time of the early Synods. The few Church Fathers who were for a time inclined to a shortened OT canon (like Jerome) finally realized that they should accept all the Sacred Books which had already been long accepted in practice by the churches.p> Jerome wrote, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches?" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). Thus Jerome acknowledged the principle by which the canon was settled—-- the judgment of the Church, not of his own preferences, and not of later Jews (e.g. Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai and his school of halakha at Jamnia/Jabneh) who rejected ALL of the Sacred Books that came after Malachi, including the entire New Testament.

[MHGinTN]

“The same can be said about the development of any doctrine.” We’ll give you the benefit of doubt and call that “Magic Thinking’ ...

[Mrs. Don-o]

After due consideration, I have decided not to scratch that itch.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Matthew 26:36
Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

Luke 3:21
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened...

I do not understand what you mean by there being no need to pray if one is in the presence of the Lord.

Jesus, for instance, was (and is) God, and was always in the presence of His Father and the Holy Spirit, with Whom He is always united in One Being, and yet He prayed.

[MHGinTN]

No need to pray In Heaven, not on Earth. But then you knew that and tried that rebuke anyway.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote, "No need to pray In Heaven, not on Earth. But then you knew that..."

I know nothing of the kind. In fact, I can't even make out what you're saying here. "No need to pray in Heaven, not on Earth"?? What??

I need you to explain, then, what you mean by "prayer." I understand prayer to mean, essentially, communion: lifting the mind and heart up to God in adoration, contrition, thanksgiving, supplication, praise, joy, with all the Communion of Saints. This happens on earth, and in a most complete and perfected way, in heaven, where it is a great communion of love with all the saints and angels, to God in Whom we live and move and have our being, God Who is All in All.

You mean something different, apparently.

That interests me. Would you explain?

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote, "...as a catholic you believe she was assumed from the Earth without dying."

Honestly, you would do better if you tell me what *you* believe, not what *I* believe. Because when you make bold to tell me what *I* believe, you are most often off by a couple of degrees, if not in a different ballpark entirely.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary did not die. The Church teaches that she was assumed (taken up) to heaven "when the course of her earthly life was finished .." It is not specified whether she died, or not. We don't know. I've heard sound Catholic offer reasons for opinions on either side. I am undecided on the question, myself.

[MHGinTN]

IN Heaven what we do is called worship. From Earth to Heaven it is called prayer.

Your religion teaches that Mary The Mother of Jesus is bodily in Heaven, receiving prayers from still alive people on Earth. Your religion teaches that Mary is an intercessor for praying people praying to her for intercession. That would make her a mediator between Man and God. The Bible refutes that, so the whole Mariology fabrication, which took centuries to completely manufacture, is a fraud.

I believe The Mother of Jesus is spiritually (that is a real thing, the spirit) in Heaven in the Presence of The Lord, as is Paul, the other disciples, and millions upon millions of people who have died believing in Jesus as Their Savior. They are collectively the ekklesia now in Heaven in spirit awaiting the gathering together in bodily form unto Jesus and then returning to the Earth as an 'army of Heaven' clothed in White Linens from the marriage.

I do not believe in the additional notions the magicsteeringthem has added regarding The Mother of Jesus over the centuries, as if these were true but needed the org of catholiciism to put them into dogma and doctrine.

[MHGinTN]

Look at the list I posted for you of relevant dates when Mariology fabrications were added, like The Assumption of Mary, in 1950. You bark when someone shows your religion’s manufactured dogma, as if you don’t believe your religion’s dictates. Why is that?

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote, "Since Mary's spirit is in God's Presence, we would not entertain that Mary's spirit would blaspheme by putting trust in anyone but Her God in Whose Presence she is now, in spirit."

Something we can agree on--- especially if you mean her "ultimate" trust.

It is not wrong to trust other people (in a non-absolute, non-ultimate way.) Mary trusted what the Archangel Gabriel had told her. She trusted what Simon told her about how a sword would pierce her soul. She apparently trusted Moses and the prophets.

I'm not saying all this as a grand irrelevance. It is right to include all these lesser trusts in the big, great trust we have in God. We have lesser, contingent trust for good people, for instance. we trust our spouses. This is not a sin.

Proverbs 31:11
The heart of her husband doth safely trust in his wife, so that he shall have no lack of gain.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"All" only in the sense that we, WITH Mary, put all our hope and trust in God.

You will understand all this much better, if you realize the tremendous fellowship of prayer, hope, trust, love which we have in the Communion of Saints. We don't pray only by ourselves, with ourselves, or for ourselves. e are not independent operators. We are not Lone Rangers. Everything is realized within the Body of Christ, of which Mary is not the Head --- but she is a beautifully important member.

This is a tremendous consequence of the Incarnation,.

Without Christ, Mary is nothing. Isn't that so? But because Mary is His Mother, He is so pleased to honor her.

[ealgeone]

However, that is not what is advocated by Rome. Complete trust and dedication to Mary is what was noted. Placing all trust in her which is in contradiction to the Word no matter how innocuous the catholic position might sound.

There is no way to reconcile Rome's position on Mary withe the Word.

We either trust Christ or Mary. It cannot be both.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The error here is the mistaken notion that the date when a doctrine was "formalized," is the same as saying on that date it was invented, fabricated, or first considered for belief.

That's like saying the date a baby was named, is the same as the date he came into being. Or, more absurdly, claiming the baby did not exist until he got his birth certificate.

You might want to read over what I wrote to metmom HERE at #443

I draw you attention in particular to this paragraph:

There are fools like Dan Brown who say that the Church did not believe that Jesus Christ was God until the Council of Nicaea, at which time this doctrine was invented and imposed on believers. One could ask, "If the Church always believed that, why wasn't that belief decreed and canonized until 325 AD?" The reason why, is because nobody had ever disputed Christ's divinity in this way before, so seriously that it threatened a breach in the Church, until Arias.

You have significantly misstated Catholic doctrines in your list. I ask you to pay attention to these corrections:

1. the Catholic Church does not permit adoration (latria) of Mary or of the saints

2. "Mariology" means the study of Mary (just as "geology" means study of the earth, and "soteriology" means the study of salvation.) It does not mean "adoration" of Mary. The word you may be reaching for here is "Mariolatry (not -logy)."

3. The use of Christian prayer beads had its beginning 800 years before the date you cited, in the 3rd --- not the 11th--- century, by the Thebaid desert monks, using the Jesus Prayer. In a gradual, later development, the Dominican Rosary came to facilitate meditation on the Life of Jesus: hence the significance of it is in the immersion in the Life of Christ, not the allegedly thoughtless repetition of the Hail Marys.

4. the adoration of Christ under the appearance of the Eucharistic species (bread and wine) began at the Last Supper. This is acknowledged by St. Paul, who calls it the Body and Blood of Christ (1 Cor. 11). Different ceremonial practices were adopted through the centuries, the the basic adoration goes back to the beginning.

As to the rest, I can only repeat that the "formalization" is not "fabrication."

The canon of the Bible was not "formalized" until he Council of Hippo in 393 AD and the Council of Carthage in 387 AD. This does not mean that the Bible was fabricated in the fourth century. It means that churches' collections of books considered suitable for the liturgy, were formally confirmed. But these collections had been existence, and in use, for centuries.

This illustrates that formalization does not signify innovation: it signifies confirmation.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"We either trust Christ or Mary. It cannot be both."

That does not follow. If Mary says "Do whatever He tells you," then trusting her is trusting in Christ. Her entire significance is in pointing and leading to her divine Son.

"Trust" can be used in an absolute, non-contingent way, or in a derivative, continent way. Trust for God must be the former; trust of Mary (or ealgeone or my husband, or anyone else), the latter.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I wrote, ""All" [our trust in Mary] is only in the sense that we, WITH Mary, put all our hope and trust in God."

You wrote, "However, that is not what is advocated by Rome"

It certainly is.

My urgent suggestion to you, as to others, is that you will spare yourself many wasted words and much misunderstanding, if you will refrain from *telling* me what I supposedly believe as a Catholic. As I said to another FReeper,

"Honestly, you would do better if you tell me what *you* believe, not what *I* believe. Because when you make bold to tell me what *I* believe, you are most often off by a couple of degrees, if not in a different ballpark entirely."

ASK me what *I* believe. TELL me what *you* believe.

Try that for awhile, as see if it does not avert much aggravation and produce a more satisfactory discussion.

[ealgeone]

The popes writings say catholics are to trust IN Mary. Catholics have attributed way more to Mary than merely pointing to Christ.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "IN Heaven what we do is called worship. From Earth to Heaven it is called prayer."

This is not how these terms have historically been used.

We worship God right here on earth, as we shall in heaven.

As for prayer, it is a much broader term and it has many forms including Adoration, Contrition, Thanksgiving, Supplication, expressions of admiration, anguish, complaint, trust, honor and praise, questions, singing, poetry, the offering of vows, the simple lifting up of the mind and heart to God, faith, hope, love, the practice of the presence of God, groaning and tears, sighs, silence, laughter at times, and many kinds of intercessory relationships, communion within the Body of Christ.

Some of these will not continue in heaven: faith and hope will disappear, for instance, because we will actually possess Him who had been the object of our faith and hope here on earth. Anguish and groaning and tears, the making of vows, will not continue.

Love and communion with other members of the Body of Christ, with Christ as our head, will always continue, because we will always love one another.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Once again, do not "tell" me what I believe as a Catholic. Your understanding is distorted and incomplete, so much so that it becomes wearying to have to correct you at every turn.

It would befit you to ask, not to tell.

And I wish to observe the same respectful reserve when discussing *your* religious beliefs. I will ask you what you believe. I will not tell you that you believe.