Party spoiler!

Gate-crasher!

So nyah.

241 posted on 04/29/2016 3:13:53 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)

The adjective presbuteros (translated 'elder') is the comparative form of πρεσβύτης presbutēs (old),

We B elders!!

242 posted on 04/29/2016 3:26:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

I wonder if anyone will try to tell you that isn’t what is really taught?

I hope so; as I just hate to propagate error.

243 posted on 04/29/2016 3:28:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

How about the angel Moroni? How about the Hill Cumorah? How about Star Base Kolob? How about the Urim and Thummim? How about Lucifer's spirit brother? How about necromancy? Do you suppose they are embarrassed by some of these issues? If not, they should be. 😀

244 posted on 04/29/2016 3:34:07 AM PDT by Mark17 (I traded my shackles for a glorious song. I'm free, praise the Lord, free at last.)

We B elders!!

Once I was at the airport in Davao City, Philippines. In the parking lot, in the distance, I saw two young Filipinos, with white shirts and bicycles. I got up closer, and sure enough, they were Mormon missionaries. I had to laugh, because they fit the profile and stereotype perfectly. 😄😆

245 posted on 04/29/2016 3:49:53 AM PDT by Mark17 (I traded my shackles for a glorious song. I'm free, praise the Lord, free at last.)

I think this is the two guys that came to my door one fall. I stepped out and told them that Iam the elder, and proceeded to give them a Sunday School lesson on Hebrews Chapter 1 whileI made them open their KJVs while I quoted it word for word from memory, then gave the proper exegesis on why Jesus is The God, inviting them to be saved. They tromped away, kicking the fallen leaves in their sore displeasure.

Two weeks later, I was at a friend's house, and the same two knocked on his door. My friend came and got me. I took the opportunity when it knoked, stepped out, and gave them the second barrel with a lecture on trying to earn their way to heaven. Boy! I've never seen such a grumpy pair of disappointed door-to-door Mormevangelists since then. This is true. I know they have a address book with people's names in it. They do not come to ny addresss any more, do they.

246 posted on 04/29/2016 3:52:49 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)

To: boatbums; Mrs. Don-o; Elsie; Salvation

So, are you admitting the author of the OP was wrong to presume the Catholic church mirrors the early church in the Acts of the Apostles?

Not at all. The list is in addition to the hundreds of things we do at church that are mentioned in the bible; including the Acts of the Apostles.

247 posted on 04/29/2016 3:58:26 AM PDT by rwa265

We ignore them: they go away.

248 posted on 04/29/2016 4:00:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

The list is in addition to ...

Isn't this what I said?

249 posted on 04/29/2016 4:01:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

I know they have a address book with people's names in it.

So do JWs...

If you have cable TV, there won’t be much on to watch.

If there isn’t much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.

If you open your door, you will see mormons.

If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into “praying about whether something is true”.

If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.

If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!

If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.

DON’T be a cultist!
Get DirectTV.

250 posted on 04/29/2016 4:03:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

I had to laugh, because they fit the profile and stereotype perfectly.

Uniformity exists when good rules are in place and obeyed.

Missionary Guide Rules https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/topics/missionary/MissionaryHandbook2006Navigate.pdf

Learn and obey all missionary rules.
Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
Don't debate or argue.
Center your mind on your mission.
Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
Cut your hair regularly.
Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
Be neat and clean.
Bathe frequently.
Use deodorant.
Polish your shoes.
Iron your shirt and business suit.
Arise at 6:30 A.M.
Study for 2 hours every morning.
Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
Exercise regularly.
Write in your journal regularly.
Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
Stay with your companion during all activities.
Do not go on road trips.
Do not leave your assigned area without permission
Do not watch television.
Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
Do not listen to the radio.
Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
Do not participate in musical groups.
Do not participate in athletic teams.
Do not sponsor athletic teams.
Do not engage in contact sports.
Do not engage in water sports.
Do not engage in winter sports.
Do not engage in motorcycling.
Do not engage in horseback riding.
Do not engage in mountain climbing.
Do not embark on a private boat.
Do not embark in a private airplane.
Do not handle firearms.
Do not handle explosives.
Do not swim.
Do not play full court basketball.
Do not play basketball in leagues.
Do not play basketball in tournaments.
You may play half-court basketball.
Never be alone.
Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
Be loyal to your companion.
Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
Pray with your companion every day.
Study with your companion every day.
Plan your work with your companion every day.
Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
Do not arise before your companion.
Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
Do not flirt.
Do not date.
Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
Do not telephone parents
Do not telephone relatives.
Do not telephone friends.
Do not telephone girlfriends.
Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
Take problems and questions to your mission president.
Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
Obey all mission rules.
Obey the laws of the land.
Do not get involved in politics.
Do not get involved in commercial activities.
Do not give any information about the area.
Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
Be courteous.
Provide community service.
Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
Your mission president must approve your housing.
Keep your housing unit clean.
Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
Maintain your health.
Eat a healthy diet.
Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
Follow the approved exercise program.
Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
Be immunized.
Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
Budget your money carefully.
Keep a record of what you spend.
Do not spend more than your companion.
Do not loan money.
Do not borrow money.
Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
Pay your bills before leaving an area.
Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
Do not waste money on souvenirs.
Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
Be a frugal photographer.
Do not accumulate excess baggage.
Obey custom laws and regulations.
Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
Do not drive without a license.
Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
Do not drive members’ cars.
Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
Use cars only on approved mission business.
Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
Be conscious of safety at all times.
Drive defensively.
Wear your seat belt.
Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
Know bicycle safety rules.
Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
Go directly to your new area when transferred.
Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

251 posted on 04/29/2016 4:07:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

Don't sell your hair to a wig shop. Don't fall into a dinner party. Don't get body slammed by a gorilla. Don't reenact scenes from Platoon with Charlie Sheen. Don't become a local fisherman they call big fatty face. Don't have your house explode. Don't have a grandson with a dog collar. Don't wake up in a road side ditch. Don't have your dad get punched over a can of soup. Don't attend your own funeral as a guy named Phil Schiffley. Don't chase imaginary butterflies into something highly illegal. Call diect TV. 😀

252 posted on 04/29/2016 5:36:21 AM PDT by Mark17 (I traded my shackles for a glorious song. I'm free, praise the Lord, free at last.)

Prime example of the catholic mind, unable to process TRUTH because the reasoning is totally inculcated with the errors at the heart of that religion, that ‘other gospel’, Catholicism.

253 posted on 04/29/2016 7:51:57 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Democrats bait then switch; their fishy voters buy it every time.)

The Greek word for "pastor" is ποιμήν (poimēn) and is used once in the NT. The adjective presbuteros (translated 'elder') is the comparative form of πρεσβύτης presbutēs (old), The protoype Jerusalem assembly was governed by a plurality of older, more spiritually mature men, whose angel/messenger/spokesman was James (Acts 15). Similarly, Paul constrained Titus to appoint elders (plural) in each city (singular). While the elders may have had a pastoral function, the title "Pastor" was not one used in the first churches, and is absent from the NT as being equated with episkopos as is done today, That whole concept of government of churches by an episcopacy is entirely a Romish military-style to subjugate great masses of humans despite their supposed freedom in Christ.

Actually, all the terms are synonymous, as manifested by their interchangeable use in Scripture. The Greek word for "pastor," poimēn, is used many times in the NT, denoting one who shepherds/pastors flocks, and thus it is most often used for Christ, and is also used for those whom God gave to the church. As such it is a general term for those who are ordained, who are otherwise called presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer), these two also being used interchangeably.

But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd [poimēn]. (Matthew 9:36)

And he gave some [G3588: "them" or "who are" cf. 2Co_1:4; Eph. 2:11], apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors [poimēn] and teachers.. (Ephesians 4:11) If pastors were different then presbuteros would have also been named as a pastoral office that God gave the church.

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [presbuteros] in every city, as I had appointed thee:.. For a bishop [episkopos] must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (Titus 1:5,7)

And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders [presbuteros] of the church. (Acts 20:17)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers [episkopos], to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Therefore pastors refers to those who shepherd the church, who are called elders (referring to the type of person)/episkopos (referring to the type of function of the episkopal office).

God always ordained government, both religious and civil, and enjoins conditional obedience to them. But not as an elite hierarchical system, much less autocratic or infallible, as Rome imagines herself to be.

255 posted on 04/29/2016 9:58:30 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)

So, are you admitting the author of the OP was wrong to presume the Catholic church mirrors the early church in the Acts of the Apostles?
Not at all. The list is in addition to the hundreds of things we do at church that are mentioned in the bible; including the Acts of the Apostles.

The same can be said of most Evangelical and Protestant churches. Because of this, Msgr. Pope's attempts to presume it is the Catholic church which best mirrors the early church spoken of in the book of Acts is what I would label as disingenuous or wrong.

258 posted on 04/29/2016 12:27:55 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

The same can be said of most Evangelical and Protestant churches. Msgr. Pope’s attempts to presume it is the Catholic church which best mirrors the early church spoken of in the book of Acts is what I would label as disingenuous or wrong.

I agree. From my personal experience, I would say that the Lutheran Church (LCMS) mirrors the early church every bit as much as the Catholic Church does. Other churches, such as the Methodist, Prebyterian and Anglican, also mirror the early church. There are some modern churches though, that are at variance with the early church. I have attended services with my daughter that were very thin on liturgy. There were a couple of songs, a very brief bible reading and sermon, handing out of wafers and grape juice, a half hour of announcements and what’s going on in the church, then a closing song. While there were some good thoughts in the sermons, I was left with a feeling of wanting more. An Our Father, a Doxology, prayers of any kind.

259 posted on 04/29/2016 1:34:15 PM PDT by rwa265

Actually, all the terms are synonymous, as manifested by their interchangeable use in Scripture.

Actually, though sometimes interchangeable when invested in the roles of one person, they are not synonomous. So I don't see their function as equivalent, necessarily. There is much to be said about this, but once the term poime (by interpretation "pastor") as related to Jesus the Anointed and Great Shepherd is sheared away, there is not much left of that save the term when used in Eph. 4:11.

And, applying the Granville Sharp Rule, the pastors are a separate group from the teachers (the διδασκαλοι didaskaloi), and that doesn't leave much room for them. Now, the literal pastors of the first local church, the prototype at Jerusalem, were the seven deacons. It was in their care that the administration of the physical needs--the food, clothing, and quarters--was placed. They were chosen from the people by the people, to be designated (not ordained) to this new office by the authority of the twelve Disciple-Apostle-Elders.

That ministry was separated so that the twelve could give themselves continually over to the ministry of the Word and prayer, which would be the figurative "feeding" of the spiritual needs of the "flock" of the assembly (as well as each other), which is--now guess, eh?--teaching. Thus, this asrrangement defined who the pastors and teachers were, and what they did.

So who are the pastors in Eph. 4:11? If the office of deacon is not comprised by "pastor" there is no place for the deacon, is there? Oh, there is One and Only administrative Pastor, a Shepherd over all, and that is Jesus Christ (Comforter 1, in Heaven), and His Holy Spirit (Comforter 2, on earth and indwelling the sheepies, all of them).

For the moment leaving the issue of episkopoi and presbuteroi aside, let's look at Simon Peter, especially in the interim period after the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit, after Jesus had breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles, but not into them.

At breakfast on the Lake of Galilee, Jesus spoke to the persona Simon bar Jonah (not to pal "Peter"), "Lovest (agapao, to sovereignly prefer above self and others) thou Me more than these?" (meaning, it is supposed, the tackle, nets, boats, his fellow disciple-sportsmen, and the livelihood of fishing).

Peter responded, "Yeah, Lord, you are aware that I have a brotherly affection (phileo) for You." Peter is actually ducking the issue of being sold out, lock, stock, and barrel to Jesus as his sole center of attention, faith, and service. Though he may be now able to see that, having deeply failed Jesus despite his verbal commitment to the death, he might now shy away from this offer of being reinvested in the Company of The Faithful Ones.

So Jesus addresses that matter by extending an offer of re-employment, commanding Peter, "Feed My baby sheep."

Here's the dynamic of this interchange: Calling to mind His teaching in John 10, Jesus is the shepherd and the supplier of the food, but He's going out to a far country. Peter, not as a hireling (12-13) but as a "porter" with the keys to the fold (Jn. 10:3) and as a friend (Jn. 15:15), is commanded to "feed" the lambs of the flock (1 Pet. 2:2,3) while the Shepherd is away. Here, he is given the task of getting little new lambs to suckle on their mother ewes, getting the "milk" of the Gospel, which is sustaining the saving faith until full assurance is a real felt experience, and the stronger food of discernment is in the offing (Heb. 5:13-14).

You see the analogy, do you not? There is only one Spiritual Pastor, One Shepherd (Jn. 10:16). A teacher is just a nurse for the little spiritual babes, a mower who distributes hay for the weak ones, and shows the stronger where to graze. He's a freely enlisted friend of the Master Teacher, but in the assembly, a presbuteros, even perhaps an episkopos if he is apt to teach (1 Tim. 3:2). Eh?

Jesus continues to encourage Peter, repeating, "Simon bar Jonah, agapao thou Me??"

Peter, still eluding commitment, responds, "Lord, yes, you see that I love You as a a brother, right?" (with, it might be surmised, a "don't You?" as the prevailing tone). This second invitation to commit being rebuffed, Jesus issues another command: Then finally, for the third time, Jesus relents and gives him even greater responsibility,since Peter--though reticent--has not refused the lesser duties. Jesus extends this offer on a different basis: "Simon bar Jonah, do you really love me as a brother?"

To which Peter, with grievous passion exclaims, "Lord, you perceive everything! You understand that I love you like family!" Wherein Jesus gives him the figurative task of teaching, of being an experienced elder, spiritually mature, a presbuteros, "Feed My sheep." The Word is figuratively the pasture, and the sheep can either find their own grass, or if too weak to help themselves, to cut some grass and put it before them so they can get stronger and feed themselves.

That is, be a teacher of my spiritually mature young men and "fathers" in strong meat of doctrine, service, and bearing the cross unto death. As a presbuteros Peter would not forsake the needs of the assembly and "go a-fishing." He woyuld be present as a didaslalos as they gather together to teach everything whatsoever he had heard Jesus command, and show them how to watchfully keep the Word secure without change or gratuitous embroidery with human traditions.

The functions of pastor, episkopos, and presbuteros are not truly interchangeable, and most certainly are not equivalent, nor are they at all synonomous. To think so is dramatically wrong. Even Peter did not call himself a pastor or a bishop. He denominated himself as an elder among elders, and wrote of this in his old age in his letter to the Diaspora of Jews and Christians. For this, Please read 1 Peter 5:1-11, and come to terms with the fact that the common current church manifestation of rule is so way out of balance, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Baptist, that none of such congregations are any longer effective of prospering in their worldly-oriented polities. They need to be restored to the New Testament model.

The deacons diakonoi, when functioning scripturally, are the pastors literally serving and managing the physical needs of the constituents of the assembly, exclusively.

The episkopos is the business manager and ruler of the physical plant, the personnel relationships, and interactions with the worldly community. An elder with limited sphere of operations, he may be and probable wouldn't be the eldest in age or spirituality, but should be appointed by the congregants and answerable to the recognized spiritual elders.

The presbuteroi, the elders, have responsibility for the teaching of the assembly, especially as directed toward one-on-one or one-on- or -very few disciple-making and training in the never-ending process of bringing constituents to full stature in the Lord, following the Great Commission in detail, and making the recruitment of new disciples the overruling concern for even having an assembly.

The church's sphere of influence on and with other similar assemblies should be friendly, but distant as regarding determining the conduct of another group. Each local assembly is scripturally meant to be autonomous, not "catholic" in polity nor engaging in attempts to rule beyond the local church. With regretful respect ---

imardmd1 = "I'M A ReDeeMeD 1 (= one)"

"Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the Enemy."

260 posted on 04/29/2016 3:37:14 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)

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