A Look at the Early Catholic Church from the Acts of the Apostles

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 04-26-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thanks for calling me disingenuous., It's always nice to get a personal comment impugning one's honesty when trying to engage in a civilized discussion.

The question at hand was whether one can say without doubt that a person is "worshiping": (by which we mean, offering adoration, in contrast to "venerating," offering high respect/honor)) when they bow, kneel, or genuflect. I have demonstrated that bowing does not necessarily mean adoring.

Biblically, just jotting down examples, it appears that bowing more often means veneration or honor or respect, than adoration. It as certainly understood that way in Biblical culture, depending on context. But you can count up the instances yourself.

Bowing (LINK)

[rwa265]

Really, ealgeone? After our recent conversation, you are still misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches?

To reiterate, the official teaching of the Catholic Church differentiates between the devotion given to Mary and the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Again, here are definitions from the Glossary of Catechism of the Catholic Church

VENERATION (OF SAINTS): Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints (828). Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. VENERATION MUST BE CLEARLY DISTINGUISHED FROM ADORATION AND WORSHIP, WHICH ARE DUE TO GOD ALONE (1154, 1674, 2132).

ADORATION: The acknowledgment of God as God, Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists. Through worship and prayer, the Church and individual persons give to God the adoration which is the first act of the virtue of religion. The first commandment of the law obliges us to adore God (2096, 2628; cf. 1083).

WORSHIP: Adoration and honor given to God, which is the first act of the virtue of religion (2096). Public worship is given to God in the Church by the celebration of the Paschal Mystery of Christ in the liturgy (1067).

[Mrs. Don-o]

I just used google mage and was blown away by how easy it would be to assemble thousands of images to fraudulently "prove" that

• American Christians supposedly worship graves
• American Christians supposedly worship American flags, and
• American Christians supposedly worship graves and flags at the same time.

Ealgeone, what are you doing to stop this idolatry?!

[ealgeone]

Disingenuous is not meant for you specifically. I’ve seen the same argument from Catholics on these forums and they just don’t hold water.

[ealgeone]

I’m not misrepresenting anything. The rcc is with its attempt to redefine what worship is to justify its teachings on Mary.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Disingenuous" doesn't mean "don't hold water."

"Disingenuous" means "insincere, dishonest, deceitful, duplicitous."

If you didn't mean to say that I am duplicitous, than I accept your explanation an apology, and will consider it over with good will restored.

As for the argument about the meaning of "bowing," very few symbolic actions are perfectly clearly defined as are terms in physics or mathematics,and that's a good thing to keep this ambiguity in mind when conflicts arise.

The wisest policy is, when people show gestures of respect, interpret it respectfully.

[ealgeone]

The question at hand was whether one can say without doubt that a person is "worshiping": (by which we mean, offering adoration, in contrast to "venerating," offering high respect/honor)) when they bow, kneel, or genuflect. I have demonstrated that bowing does not necessarily mean adoring.

Catholics bow to idols/statues of Mary.

Catholics pray to Mary while kneeling before these idols/statues.

Catholics call Mary Co-Redemtrix, Mediatrix and Advocate which is putting Mary on the same level as Christ Who the Word records is our ONLY Redeemer, Mediator and Advocate (Holy Spirit is also called Advocate).

Catholics believe apparitions claiming to be Mary have appeared and heed the advice given by these apparitions including:

wearing an article of clothing to guarantee salvation

building shrines in the apparitions honor

Catholics have given Mary titles not found in the Word including, but not limited to:

Queen of Heaven

Mother of God

Cause of our salvation

Most Holy

Most Pure

Queen of All Saints

Queen of Prophets

Queen of Apostles

Queen of Patriarchs

Refuge of Sinners

Of the known times the pope has spoken ex cathedra he has declared Mary to be Assumed into Heaven under the titles "Our Lady of Assumption" and "Queen Assumed into Heaven" though there is no evidence for this.

This is why Christians say catholics worship Mary.

[ealgeone]

The argument is disingenuous. The motives of the person may or may not be. In your case I do not believe they are. My dealings with you on these threads have always be respectful and I want them to continue that way.

[Mrs. Don-o]

But none of that is worship of Mary. It’s veneration.<p

Would you like to hazard a paragraph or two explaining the difference between veneration and adoration -— from your point of view?

[Mrs. Don-o]

It would be better, I think, to call an argument "unpersuasive" than to call it "disingenuous." Even if an argument is unpersuasive, it's not necessarily deceitful!

[ealgeone]

If post 28 doesn't clarify the difference then nothing else I add will.

We are to only pray to God and rely upon Christ for our salvation. Anything else is against the Word and is blasphemous.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Everyone in the Church relies on Jesus Christ for salvation --- even Mary of course, who calls Hims "my Savior."

As for "praying" only to God, once again that demands some refinement of what you mean by "praying."

Praying does not equal adoration. We are all members of the Body of Christ, constantly communicating and sharing spiritual goods with one another. That is not adoration: it simply is what being "members of one Body" means.

That is a relationship predicated upon being alive to one another in Christ.

This video CASTELLER says a lot to me. "I pray for you, you pray for me."

Please watch it, because I do mean it in a heartfelt way.

[raygunfan]

[ealgeone]

Everyone in the Church relies on Jesus Christ for salvation --- even Mary of course, who calls Hims "my Savior."

Glad you note that. If proves Mary was a sinner in need of salvation just like the rest of us. That takes away the Immaculate Conception.

However, the apparitions claiming to be Mary still are acknowledged by catholicism. These apparitions claim if you wear a piece of clothing you will not see Hell.

The apparitions claiming to be Mary have told people to build shrines in honor of it.

Catholicism has yet to address these false teachings.

As for "praying" only to God, once again that demands some refinement of what you mean by "praying."

You keep playing these word games in an effort to deflect the fact catholics pray to Mary when there is no Biblical support for this. We are to pray to God only.

There is no room for veneration/adoration of Mary, the saints, etc in the Word.

All of our focus should be on Him and Him alone.

[Salvation]

What makes you think all these came from Jesus and the Apostles?

[ADSUM]

Your comment: “There is no room for veneration/adoration of Mary, the saints, etc in the Word.”

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

[ealgeone]

That’s the point. They didn’t.

[Mrs. Don-o]

It doesn't help if you call arguments "word games" and you fail to engage by not attending to adequate definitions.

"It proves Mary was a sinner in need of salvation just like the rest of us. That takes away the Immaculate Conception."

It proves no such thing. It proves she needed a Savior because otherwise she would have inherited a marred and defective human nature. You can save a person preemptively or remedially. Christ graciously saved her preemptively. It's part of her predestination to be His mother, the natural source of His human nature.

"However, the apparitions claiming to be Mary still are acknowledged by catholicism. These apparitions claim if you wear a piece of clothing you will not see Hell."

I do not believe that. It is not part of the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Nor, I think, was it meant to be. It's a kind of popular-piety like saying, "You want to divorce-proof your marriage? Kiss your wife every night, and never go to be angry." It's good advice, very good advice, but it's not doctrine.

"The apparitions claiming to be Mary have told people to build shrines in honor of it."

There's a dozen Protestnt churches within a 5 mile radius of my house, with names like "Munsey Memorial Methodist Church," "Burbank Freewill Baptist," "Asbury Evangelistic Associates," "Nelson Chapel," "Magill Memorial Presbyterian Church," etc. They can be compared to shrines established in honor of the Virgin Mother Mary. They were not built to worship Munsey, Burbank, Asbury, Nelson, and Magill. They were built at their behest and named in their honor, to worship God and for the glory of God.

You do understand that, don't you? If not, I wouldn't know where to begin.

The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ absolutely states that we need each other. Noplace in the Bible does it say "We are to pray to God only" --- if you mean pray in the sense relevant here, the sense of communicating and sharing with one another as living members of the living Christ.

You find that, and we'll talk.

Tagline.

[Salvation]

I guess some people aren’t familiar with the Book of Revelation where the prayers of all rise like incense.