There are some people that believe there is no scriptural support for the Dogmatic teaching on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
This will be fun.
Fortunately, one’s salvation is not dependent upon the truth or falsity of this matter.
Luk 2:22 And when the days of her cleansing according to the Torah of Mosheh were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to YHWH – 23 as it has been written in the Torah of YHWH, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called set-apart to YHWH” –
When a womb is ‘opened’, virginity no longer exists and hence, the reason for the need for cleansing...
Lev 12:1 And YHWH spoke to Mosheh, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘When a woman has conceived, and has given birth to a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days, as in the days of her monthly separation she is unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin is circumcised. 4 And she remains in the blood of her cleansing thirty-three days. She does not touch whatever is set-apart, and she does not come into the set-apart place until the days of her cleansing are completed. 5 But if she gives birth to a female child, then she shall be unclean for two weeks, as in her monthly separation, and she remains in the blood of her cleansing for sixty-six days. 6 And when the days of her cleansing are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she brings to the priest a lamb a year old, as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the Tent of Meeting. 7 And he shall bring it before YHWH, and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the Torah for her who has given birth to a male or a female. 8 And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”
The account in the Gospels is very vague and many assume that the day of circumcision & the bringing of the sacrifice for cleansing happened at the same time. They did not. These are two separate events that happened 21 days apart, the 8th day after birth & the 33rd day after birth. But the fact remains, if Mary remained pure as a virgin in that there was no shedding of blood during the birth of Jesus, then how come she brought the required sacrifice that is only required by one who is not longer a virgin?
Matthew 1:20-25 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying:
Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Re-read the last verse here. Joseph did not know (i.e. have sexual relations with) her (i.e. Mary) UNTIL Christ was born.
The perpetual virginity of Mary is unnecessary to fulfill scripture. The scripture was fulfilled when Jesus was BORN of a virgin.
It would also mean that Joseph and Mary did not ever consummate their marriage.
Mark 10:7-8
For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother; and shall cleave to his wife.
And they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.
Mary was a devout practicing Jew, with a devout Jewish husband. A marriage not consummated is not valid under Jewish law, if I am not mistaken. And the scriptures don’t mention Joseph having other wives.
Do we have a FReeper Rebbe on hand who can clarify the issue, in the interest of accuracy?
Nicely done. I just finished a Bible study called Mary, a Biblical Walk with the Blessed Mother. It involved watching a video and discussing the readings in the book we had as well as the Bible passages. It was produced by Ascension Press and the presenter was Edward Sri. It was my first series with this Bible study group and I thought it would be sort of light and frothy for some reason but it was amazing. What’s cool about your writing is that it comes from a different angle and for the most part uses other scriptural cites. If it’s okay with you I would like to print it out and distribute it to my study group. (we’ve moved on to Galatians).
Mary's story... as passed on by Catholic Tradition
Mary is the daughter of Sts Joachim and Anna, who had been childless. On a feast day, Joachim presented himself to offer sacrifice in the Temple, he was repulsed by a certain Ruben, under the pretext that men without offspring were unworthy to be admitted. Joachim, bowed down with grief, did not return home, but went into the mountains to complain to God in solitude. Also Anna, having learned the reason of the prolonged absence of her husband, cried to the Lord to take away from her the curse of sterility, promising to dedicate her child to the service of God. Their prayers were heard. An angel came to Anna and said: "Anna, the Lord has looked upon thy tears; thou shalt conceive and give birth and the fruit of thy womb shall be blessed by all the world". The angel made the same promise to Joachim, who returned to his wife. Anna gave birth to a daughter whom she called Mary.
When she was three years old, Mary was presented to the Temple by Joachim and Anna. It is said that she stood up and mounted the steps herself. When presented, she is said to have taken a vow of virginity in service to God.
When Mary was 14 years old, the High Priest intended to send her home to be married, as was custom. Mary reminded him of her vow of virginity. This presented a unique problem as she was well-regarded for her virtue. She could not remain in the Temple and yet needed a protector so the High Priest called together men of the family of David and looked for a sign from the Holy Spirit as to who should be chosen. Joseph's walking staff bloomed in their presence and she was betrothed to him.
From there, we know the rest of the story...
Extrapolation directly to the gates of HELL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyUEcE57K3c
“It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
thou the ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
Thou the more honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim,
who without corruption gavest birth to God the Word,
thou the true Theotokos, we magnify thee.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs
“Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!
O Virgin pure, immaculate/ O Lady Theotokos
O Virgin Mother, Queen of all/ and fleece which is all dewy
More radiant than the rays of sun/ and higher than the heavens
Delight of virgin choruses/ superior to Angels.
Much brighter than the firmament/ and purer than the sun’s light
More holy than the multitude/ of all the heav’nly armies.
Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!
O Ever Virgin Mary/ of all the world, the Lady
O bride all pure, immaculate/ O Lady Panagia
O Mary bride and Queen of all/ our cause of jubilation
Majestic maiden, Queen of all/ O our most holy Mother
More hon’rable than Cherubim/ beyond compare more glorious
than immaterial Seraphim/ and greater than angelic thrones.
Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!
Rejoice, O song of Cherubim/ Rejoice, O hymn of angels
Rejoice, O ode of Seraphim/ the joy of the archangels
Rejoice, O peace and happiness/ the harbor of salvation
O sacred chamber of the Word/ flow’r of incorruption
Rejoice, delightful paradise/ of blessed life eternal
Rejoice, O wood and tree of life/ the fount of immortality.
Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!
I supplicate you, Lady/ now do I call upon you
And I beseech you, Queen of all/ I beg of you your favor
Majestic maiden, spotless one/ O Lady Panagia
I call upon you fervently/ O sacred, hallowed temple
Assist me and deliver me/ protect me from the enemy
And make me an inheritor/ of blessed life eternal.
Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!”
"Mary is not a 21st century city girl, She is a 1st century farm girl who understands the mechanics of procreation. Her response only makes sense if she had no intention of having a conjugal relation with the man she was already betrothed to. In the usual state of affairs a woman would expect to have children, but Mary is expressing amazement. Remember the angel has not yet told her that the child will be the literal Son of God only that he would be called the son of the most high and sit on the throne of David.
...............
First, hi verga. I hope things are well in your world!
I'm sure many will respond and we will have a good discussion. I will just address your argument about "shall" in Luke 1:34.
The event the angel announces will take place in the future. Mary asks how this will occur, since she will still be a virgin. Hence, the future tense about a future event.
Not an argument that proves or indicates perpetual virginity.
More importantly, there is no prophecy nor theological reason for Mary to remain a virgin. The Virgin birth was a miraculous sign identifying the Savior.
Which leads to this: it really doesn't matter much, if someone believes in perpetual virginity or not. Salvation does not depend on this.
The single question that remains crucial is where you (and all others) will spend eternity. Only by entrusting ourselves to Him and His gracious gift - accepting His righteousness instead of trying to earn our own - do we receive eternal life.
That is what matters. It is available today. Now. Why put it off?
Pretty clear the people saying this were indignant and stating what they thought would diminish Jesus: "We know this guy, his family, his trade and he's nothing special"
Of course they were wrong.
If Mary gave birth to Jesus, then it would be impossible for Mary to remain a virgin. To pretend otherwise is to say that Jesus was created directly by non-physical means, or that Mary is not human. It reminds me of the Greek and Roman myths about their gods.
“Notice that John refers to Mary the mother of Jesus and Mary the wife of Clopas as “sisters” Most families do not give uterine relatives the same first name. At best they are probably first cousins, which would make the sons of Clopas 2nd cousins to Jesus.”
suggenes
anepsios
The NT writers used words to describe non-sibling relatives.
So Mary who had not consummated her marriage to her husband Joseph commits adultery and consummates a marriage with a spirit, the Holy Spirit...And then Joseph commits adultery under the law by remarrying Mary...
You are a hoot...a Kook...
Mary has to remain a virgin because sex between a husband and wife is a dirty, evil thing. Or so Catholics apparently think.
1Cor 7:5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Even though I disagree with the conclusion of the article, I really appreciate the effort to find Scriptural support. Every Christian should look to God’s Truth for answers.
Personally, I do appreciate all the painstaking time and effort you’ve apparently put into writing this, verga. I can’t say I’m going to agree with your conclusions, but I do recognize that you must have worked very hard on this to put it together.
I’ve read quite a lot of what you wrote thus far, and I have to say that to the point I’ve gotten so far I haven’t seen any convincing arguments.
- On the point about Mary’s response and “shall be,” the “shall be” refers only to her conceiving in her womb and bringing forth a Son, which is going to happen in the future.
- On what the relationship was between Joseph and Mary at this point, they were married but the situation wasn’t exactly like marriages today.
- All that’s said about the “nuptial” language and Mary “having entered into a ‘relationship’ with the Holy Spirit” are possibilities, not certainties, and it doesn’t seem to me that the overall evidence supports the possibilities you mention. You mention that Mary’s simultaneous matrimonial relationships with the Holy Spirit and Joseph are possible in “exactly the same way that all Christians are in that relationship with Christ.” In that case, then, since Christians can also marry and consummate their relationships while being the bride of Christ, there is no basis either in that sense to prevent Mary from doing so.
- Comparing Joseph and Mary’s marriage other situations in which the woman has gone with another man or had a child with him is
- I believe it’s truly a mistake to in any way read something sexual into Mary’s marriage to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit overshadowing her. Sexual relations are for creatures. God is Spirit. Do you know how Jesus healed people in different ways. Some He touched, but not always in the same way. With one man He took His own spittle and some mud and put it in his eyes. With others, He never touched them but just spoke. As Jesus said as He raised Lazarus, and as the voice of His Father came from Heaven that to some sounded like a thunderclap, He and His Father said and did certain things for the benefit of the people who heard and saw them, not because He needed to do or say certain things. The point is to be more UNDERSTANDABLE to us. That is what it sounds like that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. From Psalm 91:
“He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.” (1)
“He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.” (4)
Psalm 17: “Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings...”
Psalm 36: “How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.”
During Jesus’ transfiguration, a cloud also overshadowed Peter, James and John.
We have to think that one of the many reasons for why God created both birds and shadows, for example, is so that once we had observed birds and shadows, then God could explain about Himself and spiritual truth to us through psalms like these.
- “Logically if Jesus is the temple then Mary must be the eastern gate since she is how He entered the world.”
Again, maybe. But the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament always have to be considered. We are also the temple of the Holy Spirit, Christ living in us.
- The claim about Jesus having John take Mary as his mother, thereby meaning that Jesus had no brothers and sisters, doesn’t have merit. Whatever the situation with Jesus’ brothers and sisters, they weren’t at the Cross. John was. This is simply of no relevance whatsoever: “it was absolutely unheard of in the middle eastern culture that a younger sibling would upbraid and older brother for any reason.” And it was unheard of to do many things that Jesus, the Son of God, did. What comes first is God’s family, the spiritual one of the Church. Anyone in the Church should, unless doing so means to sin against God, obey the command of taking care of their parents. Jesus fulfilled the Law, as He said, and part of that was providing for His mother. He did that by leaving her with a devoted family member, the family of God, whose devotion was such that he followed Jesus to the Cross. Who better to take care of Mary than the one who would do so out of Christian love, one who had been discipled (taught) by Jesus, believed in Him, and was an Apostle? Even if Jesus’ brothers were believers at this point, they weren’t at the Cross, and we know that while Jesus was discipling (training), they didn’t believe in Him. John was a true son, a son IN CHRIST, out of his devotion to God, while Jesus’ brothers, it seems, were only so at that point out of the flesh. (I would also think, if the blood kin argument had merit, and if Jesus’ brothers were only cousins, they would have a similar responsibility to take care of Mary, especially as in that culture of close extended families, cousins could be called brothers.)