Very interesting...
Posted on 02/09/2016 7:36:12 AM PST by marshmallow
Just to let you know, in the spring of 2014 some higher ups from the LCMS went to the Vatican for a secret meeting with Catholic officials. It was mostly a “get to know us” meeting. What will come out of that is hard to say, but it probably will happen again eventually. Both sides kept it very hush-hush. Who knows what might happen down the road?
From the few things I have heard, it was a introduction and explanation type of thing. This is who we are, and why the other Lutherans hate us.
Have you actually read the 95 Theses? Because NONE of them addressed devotion to the Blessed Mother (though Luther did correctly call her the mother of God) or intercession of the saints. In fact, the 95 Theses never even condemned indulgences, but only their sale (which was never sanctioned by the Church) and other abuses surrounding them.
” As soon as they give up Msry worship, indulgences, praying to saints and the other 95 suggestions Luther made.”
So Luther couldn’t be Lutheran according to your rule of thumb? Got it.
“From the few things I have heard, it was a introduction and explanation type of thing. This is who we are, and why the other Lutherans hate us.”
Yeah, that’s why I said, “It was mostly a “get to know us†meeting.”
“Have you actually read the 95 Theses?”
You’re asking a Protestant who just falsely accused Catholics of “Mary worship” if she has actually read a historical document? The chances she has read it are pretty much zero.
They can unite on global warming and gay inclusion.
Vlad:
Don’t go too far in your apologetics regarding evangelicals such as to make them afraid of the work of the HS in their life.
No ML did not deny Theotokos.
Yes, ML excoriated the practice of indulgence by payment
He also denied any should pray to the already dead.
That doesn’t mean that some should be “tossed-aside” in maintaining the purity of doctrine. That same purity of doctrine is what is required by our Pastors, not the flock...we are simply to believe.
I learned something here. I didn't know that there was an INTERNATIONAL Lutheran Council.
I agree that Rome should speak with the International Lutheran Council. Are all Lutherans in the world are part of this? Are all their dogmas and traditions the same over the world? Just curious.
The TRUTH is that there was a great deal of validity to Luther's grievances, but the Church has long since addressed them. But it is also the case that Luther's beliefs were far more Catholic than today's Protestantism.
Luther's actual beliefs were most similar to the Orthodox and the early Lutherans attempted to engage in dialog with the Eastern Patriarchs; however, major political issues prevented anything substantial from developing. If I remember correctly, the main objection that the Orthodox had with the Lutherans was over distinctions with regards to the Real Presence and Lutheran rejection of the intercession of saints.
Pope Francis is almost 80 years old now. He can't live forever. I give him another five years, ten at most. Then, the cardinals will elect another Pope.
If any “unification” with Catholics will happen, Lutherans would have to agree to be under submission to the Pope of Rome in addition to accepting the dogmas that have been developed. I can’t see how anything less would satisfy Rome.
He certainly denied that we should pray FOR the dead souls in Purgatory.
However, nowhere in the 95 Theses did he condemn prayers for the intercession of the saints. This WAS rejected by the time of the Augsburg Confession, but I'm not sure exactly when Luther made this determination.
95 Theses did not define ML’s belief. it certainly defined his understanding of the doctrine of repentance.
IOW, don’t define ML ^narrowly^ by his 95.
I wasn't, I was addressing Mom MD's initial assertion that, "As soon as they give up Mary worship, indulgences, praying to saints and the other 95 suggestions Luther made. By pointing out that these thing weren't actually found in the 95 Theses and further pointing out that modern Protestant beliefs such as the denial of the Real Presence and the Mother of God/Theotokos were positions NEVER held by Luther.
Nor evidently the “Lord’s Prayer” either.
LCMS Lutherans do not deny the Real Presence We just believe that it exists along with (in with and under) the elements In other words bread and wine still exist as well And we do not worship the elements or believe that Christ is offered for sin again in communion He suffered and died once for all and it was finished on the cross. Communion is a solemn but joyful celebration for us
I do not believe Luther worshipped Mary or called her the blasphemous title of mother of God We certainly do not today. But again Luther initially set out to reform the Roman Church When they would not address the issues there was no other solution than to break with Rome to follow Christ.
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