Could the Doctrine of the Trinity Be Wrong?

Am I to understand, in light of this post, you are Roman Catholic? I like to know to whom, or what, I am conversing with.

Yes, but the Athanasian Creed dates from the 7th Century, so if I were Greek Orthodox I would be making the same post. Must say the Greek speaks in less legalistic terms, so you might want to consult the Cappadocian Fathers to see how they talk about the Trinity.

To those of us who have studied the historical development of the trinity, the Athanasian Creed is not new to us, we have “gotten the handle on Trinitarianism” as you call it.

The creed stands at the end of a long process of development. Not something handed down historically from the apostles, mind you, but developed by step by step by such principle men as Justin, Tertullian, and Origen.

The Athanasian Creed, were it around in these men’s days, would have condemned them, none of them believed Father, son, Holy Spirit as defined in this creed.

Justin Martyr, a former pagan Greek philosopher and apologist, used the Logos of Plato as a means to defend Christianity, on one hand, a means to convert the masses heavily influenced by Greek philosophic thought, on the other.

Tertullian, who came later, building upon Justin, is famously known as the first to use “persons” and “Trinity” writing against Praxeus’ oneness belief.

Origen, who came later, following Justin and Tertullian before him, added the concept of the “eternal Son.” The councils came later, the Cappadocian Fathers you mentioned, and Augustine, giving us the final product.

I don’t buy any of it. The apostles were of the Jewish monotheist tradition, the pagan philosophy would have been abhorrent to them. John’s Logos was not Plato’s or Justin’s. They were neither Trinitarian nor Arian. I believe they were, what people call today, “Oneness Pentecostals.”

Correction, I meant to say Justin was a former philosopher, after conversion becoming a Christian apologist. I should read what I type before posting it.

And exactly what was the “Jewish monotheist tradition”? Josephus who was very much part of the same world as the Apostles knew both Plato and Moses, insisted that Plato had read Moses. Many Jews, perhaps most Jews were Greek speakers. For many years Palestine was ruled by the Ptolomies, who were very friendly to Jerusalem, and Jews made up a quarter of Alexandria. Jesus himself very likely spoke some Greek although his “mission” was to Aramaic speaking Jews, by the testimony of the Gospels. Paul, though a Pharisee, came from the diaspora of the West, as did Apollos, an eloquent evangelist of whom Paul speaks favorably. Maybe what you call the Jewish monotheist tradition is the tradition of the rabbis who had to regroup, so to speak, after the destruction of the Temple, and create a non messianic/ non territorial Judaism for a now homeless Jewish nation.

True, you had Jews that spoke Greek, Hellenized Jews like Josephus, the Rabbis you mentioned after the fall of Jerusalem, but these belie what we see in the Bible. The monotheist tradition we see there. For example:

One of the scribes asked Jesus “Which is the greatest commandment of all?” His answer: Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord.” The scribe’s response: Well, Master, thou hast said the truth:for there is one God; and there is none other but he.” Mark 12:28-32

Ask yourself, do the scribe or Jesus sound Hellenized on the monotheist tradition of the Jews? I think not.

We have another example in John 4:22, Jesus sets the monotheist tradition of the Jews over against that of the Samaritans. He told the Samaritan woman, “Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” In verse 24, he described the nature of the one God (God the Father) believed by the Jews, He is Spirit -

“God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

By the way, Oneness Pentecostals have the same monotheist tradition you see described by Jesus in John 4. Jesus, the monotheist Jews of his day, and Oneness Pentecostals see the one God as: the Father (verse 23), as Spirit, as absolutely one - “they that worship HIM (not them) must worship HIM (not them) in spirit and truth.”

This is not Greek philosophy, this is not Justin, Tertullian, or Origen, this is not the creed makers, this is what the Bible says.

Which doesn’t mean much to you as a RC, I realized that, you guys take what the ECF say over what the Bible says. Just opposite with Oneness Pentecostals.

Typo, my statement should say:

Ask yourself, do the scribe or Jesus sound Hellenized or do they sound like they represent the monotheist tradition of the Jews?

Josephus was a Pharisee. IAC, the tradition of the Pharisees and the Essenes, and of the Sadducees were all different, The Sadducess recognized as Scripture only the Torah. There was no single canon of Scripture. No single tradition.