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To: SeekAndFind; metmom; boatbums; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
But I do believe in principles of order and honor, and Paul did instruct Timothy never to rebuke an older man (or, elder) but rather to appeal to him (see 1 Timothy 5:1). So, however you view this incident, it did make Charismatics look bad.

Which is taken out of context if meaning an older man as an pastor cannot be rebuked for what he publicly preached.

MacArthur is a very dedicated and mostly sound Bible teacher of holy motive and means who has much challenged and edified me and multitudes, and one i wish i did not warrant any reproof. However, he is wrong on cessationism, plus in his reaction against excess and desire for order, he has mixed truth with false conclusions, and his treatment of it manifests a false balance.

He has written three books in support of his position: The Charismatics (1978), Charismatic Chaos (1993), and Strange Fire: The Danger of Offending the Holy Spirit with Counterfeit Worship (2013). In October 2013, MacArthur hosted a conference called "Strange Fire" at his church, to mark the launch of his book of the same name. The event featured a number of speakers who argued for a cessationist theology and strongly critiqued the Charismatic Movement.[22]

In his opening remarks, MacArthur stated, Watching the behavior of some Hindus who belong to the Kundalini cult. Their body movements are almost identical to that of people in the charismatic movement, the extreme behavior of pagans. This is the work of Satan, it is the work of darkness, and not to be attributed to the Holy Spirit." And that, "The Charismatic movement as such has made no contribution to biblical clarity, interpretation, or sound doctrine..It detracts and confuses." "It has only produced distortion, confusion, and error." "Have people truly been saved in Charismatic churches? Yes. But nothing coming from that movement has been the reason they were saved." "Evangelicalism has thrown its arms open and has welcomed the Trojan horse of the charismatic movement into the city of God. Its troops have taken over and placed an idol in the city of God."[23]

He broadly calls modern "visions, revelations, voices from heaven...dreams, speaking in tongues, prophecies, out-of-body experiences, trip to heaven, anointings, miracles – all false, all lies, all deceptions – attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit." And that "The Charismatic movement has stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf, and they’re dancing around the golden calf as if it were the Holy Spirit."[24][25] He has made a list of Gifts of the Spirit, mostly from 1 Cor. 12-14, but holds that "once the New Testament was finished, those sign gifts ceased to have a function", and ended with the conclusion of the Apostolic Age, around 100 AD.[26]

In a subsequent teaching, "What has happened after the 'Strange Fire' Conference" (2013), MacArthur allowed that within the Charismatic movement there were those who believed in the authority of Scripture, honored the Lord, and pursued Godly living, and that the movement retained enough gospel truth so that souls could be saved within it. However, he saw its interdenominational presence as being "a testimony to the absence of any theology." He further criticized the modern Charismatic movement, stating that in 1967 "a bunch of Jesus freak people.. go to Calvary Chapel...and for the first time...that I know of in history, the church lets the very defined subculture dictate what it will be," citing "the hippie culture, communal living...kids coming out of drugs and free sex, and all that" as displacing "all the normal and formal things," and typifying the charismatic church, with the movement becoming Calvary Chapel.[27]

In the past (1991) however, MacArthur commended Chuck Smith (1927 – 2013), founder of the Calvary Chapel movement, for writing "a straight forward critique of charismatic extremism," and stated that "there are many like him who have taken their stand and I thank God for their courage and their desire to be Biblical."[28] In response to MacArthur's “Strange Fire” conference, Calvary Chapel expresses a fundamental disagreement with MacArthur's understanding of spiritual gifts among God's people today, but affirms "charisma, not charismania," and commends Chuck Smith’s book "Charisma versus Charismania" as being one of the best short, popular works on the subject.[29]

Two books were written in response to the Strange Fire conference, arguing for the continuationist position: Authentic Fire: A Response to John MacArthur's Strange Fire by Michael Brown and Holy Fire: A Balanced, Biblical Look at the Holy Spirit's Work in Our Lives by R.T. Kendall. Addressing the “Strange Fire” conference, continuationist Calvinist Baptist John Piper concurs that there are many abuses in the charismatic church, however he adds that "we really need to keep in mind that every charismatic abuse has its mirror image in non-charismatic abuses...In some of these cases, the non-charismatic church is more guilty than the charismatic," such as, "the absence of emotion, which is probably more deadly than the excesses."[30] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur#Cessationism

89 posted on 08/27/2015 9:49:46 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212; metmom
Addressing the “Strange Fire” conference, continuationist Calvinist Baptist John Piper concurs that there are many abuses in the charismatic church, however he adds that "we really need to keep in mind that every charismatic abuse has its mirror image in non-charismatic abuses...In some of these cases, the non-charismatic church is more guilty than the charismatic," such as, "the absence of emotion, which is probably more deadly than the excesses."

Excellent summary. On the above quote from Piper, I think he is accurate. His opinion is similar to his fellow pastor J.P. Moreland. Who also addresses the various continuationist-cessationist views and his observations. He quotes his opinions in "Kingdom Triangle." Excellent book IMO if you have the time to read it.

92 posted on 08/27/2015 10:40:15 AM PDT by redleghunter (Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation)
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To: daniel1212

MacArthur is unfortunately quite correct. On Charismatic forums I have found proponents of Open Theism, deniers of the Trinity, Pelagians, Antinomians, and even Roman Catholics, all of whom expressing belief in the same “Holy Spirit,” alleging the same tongues, the same spiritual visions, prophecies, words of wisdom, etc. And in my time as a Charismatic, I witnessed hundreds and hundreds of prophecies— many so vague or common sensical that you couldn’t prove or disprove from whence their origin arises, but many more making predictions that never come true and subsequently building a doctrine of “NT Prophets can be wrong!” in order to explain it away.

It’s one thing to argue that the NT supports a continuation of spiritual gifts. It’s apparently quite another thing, and an extremely difficult thing, to then demonstrate you have any of them!


137 posted on 08/27/2015 6:43:36 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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