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To: af_vet_1981; Kolokotronis; kinsman redeemer; aMorePerfectUnion; Springfield Reformer; ealgeone; ...
Kolokotronis, a native speaker, quotes the Council of Chalcedon to honor the blessed Mother of God (with us) in Greek with an English translation,

Being a native speaker does not mean (and he did not say) that the English was the most literal translation, but "an acceptable translation." Perhaps that is acceptable to a Catholic who prefers that over a more literal translation, while in any case Chalcedonian Definition adds the qualifier, "according to the Manhood" (cf. Rm. 9:5-as concerning the flesh"), which characteristic lack of in the use of MOG continues to be an issue in the protest against its use.

And as more weighty authors state,

“The term Theotokos — Θεοτοκος — does not mean the same as “Mother of God” in English or the common Latin translation. In English one must translate Theotokos as “Bearer of God.” The correct Latin would be deipara or dei genetrix, not Mater Dei. (“The Significance of the Term Theotokos” from The Byzantine Fathers of the Fifth Century (Fr. Georges Florovsky) June, 1987).

The most literal and correct translation of Theotokos [though lacking an exact English equivalent] is “Birth-giver to God” or “God bearer”. - http://www.irishorthodoxchristianchurch.com/response-on-the-use-of-%E2%80%9Ctheotokos%E2%80%9D/

The title Theotokos (in Greek, Θεοτοκος) is a Greek word that means "God-bearer" or "Birth-giver to God." "The most literally correct one is Birth-giver to God, though God-bearer comes close."

"The Church acknowledges the mystery in the words of this ancient hymn: "He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos." "The most popular translation, Mother of God, is accurate to a point, but the difficulty with that one is that Mother of God is the literal translation of another Greek phrase which is found on nearly all icons of the Theotokos: Μητηρ Θεου (Meter Theou)..," - http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

The problem is not that of using theological terms or English words that were translated from Greek words which have no exact equivalents, but of the most accurate ones, and avoiding using words which are the result of theologically imposed meanings (as "priest" [from old English "preost"] for "presbyteros ") when a more accurate word can be used.

Those who do want to clarify the distinction (which few do) btwn the normal ontological meaning of "Mother of" and that of Mary simply being the holy vessel by which God, who created her, took upon the body God had prepared, must engage in explanations which would be less warranted if they simply used "bearer of God."

Moreover, consistent with the reasoning used to justify the uncritical use of "Mother of God," (Jesus was God and Mary was His mother=MOG) Jews could be called God-killers since lost Jews (via the Romans) killed Jesus, and Jesus was God.

While technically it may be allowed as qualified as describing eternal God as an incarnated man, it is just as misleading to infer Divinity itself can be killed as it is to infer Divinity itself can be born, and thus it should be avoided as something that creates more problems than it is worth.

Yet MOG is obviously preferred to the more ancient "bearer of God," and is often used as part of an uncensored level and litany of ascriptions and adulation never given to any created being in Scripture, even reaching those which are unique to God.

642 posted on 08/22/2015 9:49:01 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212
I have sympathy for those who realize they cannot remove "God" from "Mother of God (with us)," having been warned by others they are starting down the path of heresy. As an alternative, you seem to suggest using the Greek word Theotokos, either untranslated or changing all renderings of the English word "mother" to "birth giver." That is a novel approach, for English speakers. "Mr. Smith, this is my mother, birth giver Miriam." Hmmm ... it may be better to learn to speak Greek instead.

All references (among Protestants) change to Mary Birth Giver of God.

646 posted on 08/22/2015 10:14:52 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: daniel1212
Bearer of God and Birth Giver of God are both good translations of θεοτοκος, but as af_vet_1981 points out, it certainly sounds strained in English. The term Mother of God is regularly used, as you pointed out, in our icons. You'll see it as ΜΡ and ΘΥ on either side of her.

The term Τοκος (Τοκου)which you will see at the end of the Greek translation of the Arabic Paschal chant linked below, is generally translated as "Whom you bore", meaning to Whom you gave birth. The Arabic in the linked chant is almost word for word identical to he Greek in meaning. It is sobering to realize what is happening now to the Christians who have chanted this hymn (along with all other Orthodox Christians) during the Paschal Season since the 4th century. Please all of you, pray for them tomorrow and always.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJyubi8FJk

657 posted on 08/22/2015 10:55:26 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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